Is your closet filled with clothes that no longer fit your body today? Do you wear styles that society has deemed "flattering" to your body, or do you allow your personal aesthetic to define your wardrobe?
Dacy Gillespie is a personal stylist and creator of Mindful Closet. She empowers women to be their authentic selves through their clothes and is bringing conversations about intuitive eating, HAES (Health At Every Size), and inclusivity to her work in very meaningful ways. Follow her on Instagram and sign up for her newsletter to learn from her.
Want to learn more about how to make peace with food in midlife without feeling like you've given up on yourself? Learn about how to work and learn with me here: https://linktr.ee/Jshuber!
Looking for a place to learn more about midlife, menopause nutrition, and intuitive eating? Click here to grab one of my free resources and learn what I've got "on the menu" including my 1:1 and group programs. https://www.menopausenutritionist.ca/links
Is your closet filled with clothes that no longer fit your body today? Do you wear styles that society has deemed "flattering" to your body, or do you allow your personal aesthetic to define your wardrobe?
Dacy Gillespie is a personal stylist and creator of Mindful Closet. She empowers women to be their authentic selves through their clothes and is bringing conversations about intuitive eating, HAES (Health At Every Size), and inclusivity to her work in very meaningful ways. Follow her on Instagram and sign up for her newsletter to learn from her.
Want to learn more about how to make peace with food in midlife without feeling like you've given up on yourself? Learn about how to work and learn with me here: https://linktr.ee/Jshuber!
Looking for a place to learn more about midlife, menopause nutrition, and intuitive eating? Click here to grab one of my free resources and learn what I've got "on the menu" including my 1:1 and group programs. https://www.menopausenutritionist.ca/links
Jenn Huber 0:02
Hi and welcome to the Midlife Feast the podcast for women who are hungry for more in this season of life. I'm your host, Dr. Jenn Salib Huber. Come to my table, listen and learn from me. Trusted guests, experts in women's health and interviews with women just like you. Each episode brings to the table juicy conversations designed to help you feast on midlife.
This week, I'm bringing back Dacy Gillespie, Dacy is also known as mindful closet on Instagram. And you may remember her from January of 2022 this year when she joined me as part of my non diet resolution challenge. And I wanted to bring Dacy back on the podcast, because the conversations that she has as a personal stylist are very different than I think many people think of when they think of what a personal stylist does. And more recently, Dacy has shared quite a bit about her own experience of learning to become an intuitive eater, and working on her own body acceptance as it changes. And so she recently wrote about how intuitive eating informs her work. And I wanted to keep that conversation going.
So in this episode, we talk about that, we talk about what it means to feel good in your clothes, we talk about how you can grieve a changing wardrobe that changes for any reason. And some of the other things that you can do to really bring it back to feeling good about your body when you're in your body and not just about your body. When you like the outfit that you have on or like what you see in the mirror. It's a really great conversation. And I hope you'll tune in. And I'd love to hear what you think, after listening to what Dacy has to say, I'm so excited to continue this conversation that we started back in January as part of the non die resolution.
And we you know, set a pact that day that we were going to continue this conversation and I've been making notes about what I want to learn about the process that you you've gone through personally if you're comfortable sharing some of that, but also just the process that you help other people go through, as they're learning about themselves. So, strictly speaking, you're a personal stylist. Now when I think personal stylist, and I think even before meeting you, personal stylist to me would be someone who was trying to make me look like I could wear what was on the cover of a magazine. That's what I thought of a personal stylist. But that's not what you do. So tell us a little bit about your journey to doing what you do. Mm hmm.
Dacy Gillespie 2:47
Well, the whole story is a long one. And I won't, I won't go into all of it. But essentially, growing up, I got the message that caring about clothes and fashion was very superficial, and that it was not something to waste time or energy on. And so if I hadn't had that message, I probably would have gone into fashion a lot sooner, because it's something I've always loved. But I went into classical music instead. And that, you know, 20 year career in performing and arts administration. But it was really burnt out, it was not a great fit for my personality type and my kind of temperament. And so, honestly, I mean, the story is that I was just having, you know, angst about what I should do with my life. I mean, even though I've said my mid 30s at this point.
And a therapist asked me, you know, what do people ask for your help with. And this was something people always ask for my help with. And essentially, I did a bunch of research, started a business, and it's been going great ever since then. So that's the short version. But what's interesting is how it's evolved. Since I started my business, I really did start it with more of a focus on minimalism and just feeling like especially in Western culture, we're just kind of Elizabeth Klein wrote a book, overdressed, and she talks about drowning in clothes. And I just that was what was feeling like the main issue to me then. But what was fascinating was once I started really working with women, more and more, I saw that that was not necessarily the issue.
What was really the issue was the feelings and messages women had around their bodies. Yeah, and how that was preventing them from letting go of clothes, buying the right clothes, you know, figuring out what they wanted to wear. And so, you know, it's been nine years that I've been doing this now and in the last three or four at least I've really gotten very focused on that aspect of it and Along the way, you know, kind of had, as you mentioned, my own process with body changes.
Jenn Huber 5:06
So let's talk about some of those messages. So I'm going to take a stab at what I think some of those messages were based on the messages that I internalized, not necessarily directly. Like, it wasn't anything that people said to me. But I was always curvy. So I, you know, was always told to, you know, wear black on bottom, and to make sure that I didn't wear horizontal stripes, and that an empire waist was my friend, that a line is going to be the most flattering style for my body. Those are just kind of some of the ones that came to mind. So as far back as I can remember, that used to be the criteria for choosing, I wouldn't even look at something. Right, if it didn't meet that criteria. Yeah. So it's not the kind of messaging that that you were talking about? Yeah, I
Dacy Gillespie 6:00
mean, that's the surface layer, for sure. I feel like there are so many, you know, and a lot of my clients kind of grew up during the time when What Not to Wear was very popular as a TV show. And there were just along with that show, there were lots of books and magazine articles. And, you know, I guess, early internet articles, about just the rules for your body. And just what I find so fascinating is, and by the way, I followed those rules, too. I mean, it's not as though I, you know, was somehow immune to this or had this whole concept in earlier in my life. But what I find fascinating now is that those rules are just placed on you, regardless of anything about you, other than the proportions of one part of your body to the other. So it takes into it takes no account of your personality, your lifestyle, your preferences, the type of art you like, you know, just really anything. And that's what just kind of flabbergasted me. And when we really like kind of break it down and think about it. And so I like to start from a place of looking at all those things first, and then we move into what kind of clothes you want to wear. Without that kind of censorship of, of, like you said, like not even allowing yourself to look at certain things.
Jenn Huber 7:23
Yeah, because there were definitely were times I'm sure, I can't remember exact, you know, instances, but where I would would have probably wanted to try something on, or I liked how it looked on someone, but it but I immediately didn't, because I had that default programming that oh, it's not built for my shape. It's not built for my sides. It's not made for bodies like mine. And it's that comparison, that, you know, drives I think so much of our of our discontent with our bodies believing that they're not good enough to wear something to go somewhere to do something.
And I mean, that started to change, you know, with the everybody has a bikini body messaging, which was great. Don't get me wrong, I really appreciated that as like a mainstream message. But at the same time, I still feel like it didn't extend to the other areas of fashion, there was still very much, you know, there's like less straight sizes, and there's the curvy sizes. Like why do we have to qualify them? Why can't they just be you know, sizes that reflect the range of the human body that diversity the human body. And so I think that a lot of people still just like when I talk about foods as being good or bad. I think that if you're someone who has to wear something that's labeled curvy, it's not just a descriptor of your body shape, it's a value judgment.
Dacy Gillespie 8:53
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I mean, I can't speak to that experience. Personally, I'm still in straight sizes, although I'm kind of nearing the top range. But I hear that from clients all the time that there's this absolute fear and shame, of sizing out of straight sizes. And it's just not
Jenn Huber 9:14
even straight sizes, just styles like if I think like I'm also you know, at the upper end of the street sizes. But if there's a curvy option, that is the option that typically fits my body better, but why does it have to be described as the curvy option? Or why do we have to label jeans as you know, skinny jeans or in like, those are all sure they're just descriptors, but in our society, they carry value, and they they're a judgement of body shapes and sizes. So yeah, there's a lot wrapped up in fashion. So you've kind of hinted at and I know that you've shared quite a bit on social media about your own journey and more recently, you've been talking about how intuitive eating informs your work? Can you tell us more about that? Because I really love that intersection that you've brought together?
Dacy Gillespie 10:09
Yeah, I mean, I think there are so many overlaps between just the concept of intuitive eating and the way that I hope to coach my clients into dressing. And, you know, the biggest one is that just like all those messages you got about what you should wear and what the rules were for you, those, I'm sure you got around food as well, right. And so, you know, I just this concept of people who don't know you, or don't know anything about your life, dictating what you should eat, or what you should put on your body. Again, it's just, it's really interesting. I mean, it's, you know, the fact that, that one, quote, diet book is meant to apply for all human bodies, just, it doesn't make any sense. I mean, we're just also individual we have, like I said, with clothes, we have different lifestyles, we have different preferences, we should be able to, you know, accommodate our own preferences into what we eat and what we were. So yeah, so those are a lot of the overlaps that I see is really just in this like, concept that there's one right way to do it.
And that there's one expert who tells you what that is, and that you don't listen to what your body's telling you. And that's where I see intuitive eating. And the process of getting dressed as both, excuse me, both entry points into tapping into kind of self knowing and getting to know yourself, and the process of practicing listening to yourself and listening to your needs. Because when we take those rule books or those directives from other people, we're ignoring ourselves.
Jenn Huber 11:55
Yeah. So it's kind of like attunement. So in an intuitive eating, we teach attunement, which is learning to listen, not just to your body's hunger and fullness cues, but also all of the other needs that need to be met, in, you know, the course of being a human. And so the need for connection and joy and pleasure and satisfaction and movement. And, you know, all too often, those needs are being informed by people who don't live in your body. So you need to have this you need to eat that you shouldn't eat this or don't have too much of that. And while those may be true for some people, they're not going to be true for all people, because we're all different. And I think that that attunement is where I really see so much of the overlap. Like I love messaging around like I when you when you show kind of clothes that you're trying on, you know, you often describe how you're feeling in them, which I really appreciate you like there's, you know, there might be some commentary on what you think it looks like, but there's so much of the I feel comfortable in this. I feel really good in this. I feel you know, and I think that just like with attunement to food, attunement. And what we're wearing really has to be focused on how it makes us feel. Yeah.
Dacy Gillespie 13:14
I mean, you said it so well. And I love that just again, plank applying an overlap of this concept of attunement because it really is, again, something we haven't, as with intuitive eating, women have not had practice listening to their body's signals and their body's messages, and it takes work to start to hear those things. And it's the same with what are what we're wearing. And if you just think about the years personally and the, you know, centuries of historically that women have been I don't say forced, although in some cases it was forced, but encouraged to wear things that are not comfortable on their bodies.
It is a very big challenge to start to listen to. Yeah, does this feel comfortable? Does this not only physically comfortable? But does this give me this sense of safety that I feel I need today? Or does this give me the sense of excitement or specialness or or any of those things? Which again, so many overlaps with food, you know?
Jenn Huber 14:27
So I just had a question pop in and I feel like it's gonna I think I know what your answer is going to be. But I'd love to discuss it a little bit. shapewear What are your thoughts?
Dacy Gillespie 14:40
Um, you know, no one has, I don't think anyone's ever specifically asked me about this. So yeah, let's talk it out. I mean, I just from the very first level of thought comes just this idea of physical discomfort. And again, and you know, I want to always acknowledge this all the way through this interview, I have still I have lots and lots of them privilege, and especially previously, you know, growing up, it was very thin. And so I don't actually have a ton of personal experience with shapewear.
But my sense is that it's not comfortable. You know, I just have to assume that. And again, what are we doing that for? What are we wearing the shape wear for? I mean, this is where the patriarchy comes in, right? Because are we doing that? So that we appear attractive to the male gaze? I mean, again, I have to assume that usually Yes. And so for me, just those two things right there, the physical discomfort, and the dressing for someone externally? is a big no for me.
Jenn Huber 15:53
What about because I have this conversation, not infrequently, it Well, I mean, it's not like it's every day, but I've had this conversation a few times with a few different people. And some of the people really maintain that wearing shapewear, under certain types of clothing, you know, more form fitting dresses or tops, helps them to feel more confident. So they maintain that it is not for anyone else but themselves. But they also acknowledge that it's uncomfortable. More than it is for my wedding.
And for my wedding, which was like, almost 17 years ago. Now. You know, everyone like you basically bought your wedding dress with a pair of Spanx, like you did not buy one without the other didn't matter what size you were. And I remember like arriving at the reception. And the first thing I did was I said, somebody has to come with me to the bathroom, because I have to take these bloody things off. Oh, my God, like I, I couldn't even I couldn't even like I couldn't fathom spending another minute of this day that was supposed to be, you know, this wonderful day, feeling uncomfortable, and I never wear them again. So you know, I don't have a good experience with them. But a lot of women wear them regularly daily and really maintain that it is for themselves. And yet they acknowledge that they're uncomfortable, and I can't wait to rip them off when they go.
Dacy Gillespie 17:18
Okay, so there's so many layers there. Right? I mean, one is that I want to acknowledge what I said earlier about feeling safe. And you know, having that comfort of the safety and the protectiveness in your clothes. I think part of this falls into that category. Right? So I'll give a personal example. I have gained weight in my midsection. And no, I don't actually feel super comfortable wearing skin tight tops. You know, that's just not something of course. Should I feel comfortable? Should I be allowed to wear whatever I want? Absolutely. Do I feel comfortable? Is that what I want to wear? Is that what I feel safe in? No, not right now. My opinion, because I've been through this change multiple times, I've had two kids, like, my feeling is that generally, you take baby steps towards comfort and confidence. And so for me, I expect that at some point in the future, I will feel differently.
And I will feel just fine about wearing things that are a little more form fitting than I am right now. But right now this change is new for me. And I want to feel safe, and I want to wear oversized tops. Luckily, for me, it's a huge component of my aesthetic style as well. So I get to check that box too. But I yeah, I want to allow that this can be part of that feeling of safety and and, you know, while it may be influenced by the patriarchy, and by this ideal standard of beauty that is, you know, European, decided by men, all of those things. It's still we still have to live in the world. And so I completely do understand that my hope is that the more of us who can slowly take those baby steps? The more we make it, okay, for someone to, you know, in a few years and five years and 10 years, not feel like they have to wear that.
Jenn Huber 19:16
Yeah, yeah, I think that's all really relatable. Um, which kind of leads me which is a great segue into the next question I had, which is, let's say that you're someone who is in a body that is changing and all bodies change. You know, a human body is a changing body, and you're in a body that's changing regardless of the stage that you're at, but I'm guessing that most people listening to this are somewhere in their 30s 40s 50s and above. And the clothes that you used to wear the clothes that you used to feel safe in the clothes that you used to feel good in. Don't anymore. And you're having a hard time letting them go. You're having a hard time buying new things, because it feels like you're giving up It feels like by letting go of those clothes, or by buying the next size up, or the whatever it is that it is like admitting defeat. So I'd love to hear your thoughts on, you know, the grieving process and what, what's going on there?
Dacy Gillespie 20:16
Well, first, I want to acknowledge that although you and I are in this lovely little bubble, where we know the things that you said at the beginning, like a human body as a changing body, and all those things, we have to remind ourselves and everyone listening has to remind ourselves that that's not the message we're given. The message we're given, as we are, you know, coming out of adolescence and into, you know, female adulthood is that there's going to be a body that you hit sometime when you're young, and that's the one you have to stick to, and you should be always fighting and using all your energy to get back to that one if you if you happen to change out of it. And so again, just really acknowledging like, this has been programmed into me, this is going to be hard to shift. And acknowledging that. One thing I often say, and this, you know, we'll get to the grieving part in a minute, but I do often just I think it's helpful to give other examples of changing bodies that we don't judge just to, again, make the point that this is something that is patriarchal, and and specifically focused on female bodies.
And, you know, that's the bodies of our children, we would never in a million years, say, Hey, you are now six, and I'm sorry, but you have to wear the clothes that you wore when you were five. And then as well, I mean, I, my husband, doesn't mind my saying this phase weight fluctuates all the time, do you think he has angst about it? No. And so, you know, literally, like, and I know, this is not true, I know that there are men who have body image issues. But in general, it's much more seen as a need, that you just need to buy a different size of pants.
So again, I just kind of want to point out those those couple examples. And then there really is, you know, for me, and for most of my clients, a sadness about that, even if you can rationalize that away. And even if you can say, what's the patriarch, and we don't judgment and all those things, it still makes you feel sad. And that is, I think, something that we need to make space for. And allow for, and really sit with a little bit before we can really kind of accept it and move on to the next stage, which is by inclusive fit.
Jenn Huber 22:44
You're still writing about ages and stages, though, and how different body or different times in a human experience may not be met with that same pressure. And I often use the example of most women who have been pregnant, remember feeling very confident, and very, you know, beautiful, even at their largest are in, you know, like in the in, in a body that has changed, you know, exponentially and have no guilt or shame about their belly. And you know, and I think that that's a great example of how it's not the shape of the body, because we can see beauty in a pregnant round, large belly. It's the expectation that if you're not pregnant, you should not have that. Yeah,
Dacy Gillespie 23:33
it's certain times it's allowed in certain times. It's.
Jenn Huber 23:38
And it's true about men. I mean, yeah, there's absolutely a lot of very necessary discussion around men's body image as well. But as an example, my husband couldn't tell you the size of his pants. Like he literally just when he needs new pants, like, he'll look at the tag, or he'll give me the tag or whatever. He doesn't know what his size of clothing is. We don't know the scale. So he doesn't know what he weighs, either. But I just mean, like, I think that that would be a very unusual experience for most women, you know, who knows? Who can really kind of chart the timeline of their life based on the size of clothing they were wearing, and what the number was on the scale, what diet they were on.
And so it is a very different experience. But how do we metabolize that grief? How do we take the I understand that my body has changed, I want to respect it and be kind to it and not hold on to these clothes that don't fit my body today? How do I metabolize that, and so that I can move on without feeling like I'm letting go?
Dacy Gillespie 24:35
Yeah. Well, there are a couple of things. For one, I want to give credit to Brianna Campos, who is a body image therapist and talks a lot about body grief. And she's awesome. Yeah, she's amazing. And she has lots of exercises actually in journaling that she does throughout her her programs. And so, one thing that I always do with my clients is is weed Do I call it a style story? Like in our first session, we kind of go back to what did you love wearing as a child? What did you love wearing when you got into high school and then, you know, along that, like you said, ages and stages of your life. And I think it's helpful, this is something that I did with, with Bree is, is doing that for your body as well, again, just to acknowledge, where there were shifts, how you felt about them. Just that awareness of for me, that was really helpful.
For me, it helped me see that a lot of my grief about body changes was tied to my idea of being attracted attractive to men. So you know, that's a deep issue, but just something that is interesting to acknowledge so. So I think there's definitely work in that way to be done around it for me, you know, and for me, working with my clients, there's really this process of doing a closet edit, you know, and really going through and saying, like, how many of these articles of clothing hanging in your closet? Make you feel good when you look at them? And if they don't feel good? Is it because they don't fit? And can we acknowledge this negative energy that's just kind of sitting there being directed at you every time you open your closet door? And can we make space to move those out. And it doesn't have to be it can be a slow process, like, it doesn't have to be like you get rid of those immediately. But I definitely one of my like, just bottom line pieces of advice for anyone is to make sure the clothes hanging in your closet that you and that you like them.
Like that's just a very bare minimum. And you'd be surprised, you know, women who say, I have a closet full of clothes, when I asked how many fit you that you like, you know, it gets whittled down pretty quickly. So you know, those clothes can be packed away, they can be moved, you know, to another room, they can be boxed out, you don't have to get rid of them. But I also think this is I do use a lot of Marie condos, you know, kind of techniques and methods. And when I'm working with clients as well, and she has if you haven't read the life changing Magic of Tidying Up, it's not specifically about body grief. But she has lots of techniques for acknowledging and thanking items for what they did for you how they served you, and allowing them permission to go on and serve someone else. And so as I say that out loud, it sounds kind of silly, but it's it's true.
I mean, often, with my clients, we will just sit and say, you know, I loved this piece so much. It was so great. For me, here are some of the things I remember. And also their space, I think for holding on to some of those. I personally have a bin of clothing in my basement that I haven't looked in in probably two years because it is just a collection of nostalgic clothes. Over the course of my life. I mean, there's things in there from childhood and high school and early adulthood. And that's my nostalgia Ben of clothing. Clothing is important to me. And it's okay to hold on to things if they have special meaning. They should not be hanging in your closet making you feel bad. But such a big difference. Exactly. Yeah.
Jenn Huber 28:20
Yeah, I want to I wish you could like come visit me here in the Netherlands do a closet edit with me because I feel like I have a bit of like the reverse and that I have no problem now. Now, this isn't always no problem. Getting rid of clothes that don't fit me. But because I felt like clothing, finding clothes that fit and work in style was a challenge. I hold on to clothes that fit even if I don't like them. Right, so I have far too many clothes in my closet. And most of them fit because like I said, I have no problem if it doesn't fit. That's the easy decision for me. It's getting rid of it if it still fits, because I'm like, Wow, maybe I'll wear it. I never wear it.
Like she didn't wear it. No, she didn't. So, you know, I find I think that there's even as you metabolize through those first stages of like being able to let go things that don't fit anymore or don't fit your body today. Even you know there can be other things that come up and so I don't think that we have given enough not we as in you and I but just the bigger kind of body culture have not really talked a lot about the the emotions that we hold in our clothing and how that reflects how we feel about ourselves and it's obviously a much bigger discussion. So if people want to work with you, if someone is listening and thinking um, I think I need some help. How do you work with people who are looking to to make their closets more mindful
Dacy Gillespie 30:00
Um, my I have a one on one program that is two months long. And we kind of go through all the stages of everything we've talked about your style story, we define your aesthetic style, we do a closet edit, we talk about how to shop for things, then I do some shopping for you. So that you can, at least for once, not have to stress about it. And then kind of fill it all together with some styling. So you can find out about that on my website at mindful closet.com. And then I also have a group program where we in a in a small group of women, we kind of work through all these issues together. And that is always Yeah, that is always a really incredible experience.
Jenn Huber 30:40
So the link to DCs programs will be in the show notes. So definitely check that out. And as we wrap up this awesome conversation, what is the what do you think is the missing ingredient in midlife?
Dacy Gillespie 30:56
I wanted the thing that just popped into my mind was permission. Just permission, yeah, permission. And for me, it's like permission to rest. But it could be so many things permission to buy clothes, you'd like permission to buy clothes in the size, you need. Permission to eat something that gives you pleasure, all of those things. And
Jenn Huber 31:15
love it. Thank you so much JC and I know that so many people will find this episode helpful because we're talking about, you know, the outer rings of changing your relationship with food. And I think that, you know, we need to be talking about that stuff more because how we dress should feel ultimately just like food, feel how we feel in our body, not just about our body and I thank you for the work that you do with that.
Dacy Gillespie 31:42
Thanks so much Dan. It's always fun to talk to you.
Jenn Huber 31:47
Thanks for tuning in to this episode of the midlife feast. If you're looking for help with menopause nutrition or just want to figure out how to make peace with food and midlife. Check the show notes so you can learn about how to work with me and sign up for one of my group programs. And just a reminder that beyond the scale, my most popular group program will be starting up again in May and registration opens mid March. So make sure to get on the waiting list if you'd like to be the first to hear about it.