The Midlife Feast
The Midlife Feast
#124 - Looking Forward to Menopause: Life's Second Spring with Kate Codrington
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What would it take for you to truly embrace and even get excited about this season of life? In this episode, we’re thrilled to welcome back Kate Codrington—author and midlife coach—who always brings such warmth, joy, and wisdom to these conversations.
Together, we talk about the different stages of life as seasons—spring's exploration, summer's energy, autumn's reflection, and winter's rest. Kate and I challenge the idea that menopause is simply about loss and share how we can create gentle, nurturing rhythms to navigate these shifts with more ease.
We’ll also dive into Kate's new Perimenopause Journal, which encourages simple daily self-check-ins, aligning with the seasons to make self-care feel natural and meaningful. This conversation is packed with wisdom, practical tips for self-love, and a fresh perspective on what's possible in midlife!
We’d love to hear your thoughts and questions, so please share them using the button here at the top!
To learn more about Kate and her work, check out her website at https://www.katecodrington.co.uk/, and follow her on @kate_codrington on Instagram.
Links Mentioned:
#74 Heeding the Call for Change with Kate Codrington
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Hi and welcome to the Midlife Feast, the podcast for women who are hungry for more in this season of life. I'm your host, Dr Jen Salib-Huber. I'm an intuitive eating dietitian and naturopathic doctor and I help women manage menopause without dieting and food rules. Come to my table, listen and learn from me trusted guest experts in women's health and interviews with women just like you. Each episode brings to the table juicy conversations designed to help you feast on midlife. And if you're looking for more information about menopause, nutrition and intuitive eating, check out the Midlife Feast Community, my monthly membership that combines my no-nonsense approach that you all love to nutrition with community, so that you can learn from me and others who can relate to the cheers and challenges of midlife.
Jenn Salib Huber:Have you ever found yourself wondering what would it take to look forward to in menopause?
Jenn Salib Huber:What would it take for you to be excited about this season of life or to be able to accept what's happening to all the things in midlife? If you've ever wondered that question, you will want to listen or watch this episode with Kate Codrington. Kate is an author and a women's midlife coach, and she's written two books. Her first book was Second Spring, which we talked about on the podcast last year and her book this year is a journal it is the Perimenopause Journal and I love this book because it really taps into rhythms and routines, which is a concept near and dear to my heart about how do we create kind of a rhythm, a routine that feels good, that is nourishing, that also feels easy, and so we talk a lot about this concept of seasons and how we can use these concepts to lean in to menopause. So I hope you'll listen or watch and if you have questions, make sure to pop them into the comments and let me know what you think. Hi, Kate, Welcome back to the Midlife Feast.
Kate Codrington:Oh, and what a feast it is.
Jenn Salib Huber:We've already had a feasty conversation for about, you know, five, ten minutes, before we started to hit record, and I always look forward to listening to you, talking, to you reading what you have to write, because I think that your voice in this midlife space is so welcome. It's full of wisdom, but also just gentle care. It's just lovely. I just love everything that you have to say about this stage of life.
Kate Codrington:Thank you, jen. It means a lot to feel that my words are landing well. I think that I have such a radically different viewpoint from the mainstream that sometimes I think. Sometimes I wonder if the compassion and surrender and possibilities for personal growth that I see in perimenopause for other people might sound like broken crockery on a tiled floor if they're suffering.
Jenn Salib Huber:So yeah, it's yeah, thank you.
Jenn Salib Huber:Well, and one of the reasons why I wanted to talk to you today is because the theme for this year's podcast if anybody hasn't listened to the first episode that came out on the 16th is leaning in to menopause, and leaning in from a place of acceptance, not resignation, and having something to look forward to. And I think this is, you know, as I mentioned in that podcast, one of the missing pieces, at least from what I see. One of the missing pieces, at least from what I see, is this idea that we don't have to run away from menopause. That's not to say that there aren't unpleasant bits. There are, absolutely. There are uncomfortable places, there are symptoms that can wreak havoc in life, but it doesn't mean that it's awful, it doesn't mean that it's only bad things. So I was really excited to talk to you about this concept of leaning in. So what do you hear, or what do you think? What comes to mind when I say leaning into menopause?
Kate Codrington:Well, when we were talking before we hit record, I had to ask you what you meant by that, because my initial understanding is of leaning in is that leaning into support is to allow ourselves vulnerability and to allow ourselves, our vulnerability, to be supported by others. So I think it's actually a two-way thing. I think that is really important, that we because in perimenopause transition years we're typically we're too exhausted to mask anymore, we're too exhausted to pretend to keep up a, you know, a nice smiley face and be and that's for neurotypical people as well, and especially anybody with neurodivergence the masking will have just gone and that causes a whole load of difficulties.
Kate Codrington:So it's a really good time to say to acknowledge this is hurting. I feel wobbly here. How can I support myself so externally? But the internal piece is absolutely essential for perimenopause.
Jenn Salib Huber:And.
Kate Codrington:I also think that so is the fighting. So my training has been in Red School and this is their concept. The seasons and the phases of menopause. The first phase is a phase of actually rejecting and fighting. It's a phase of really feeling the conflicts of I don't want this, of the battle, of this is not acceptable. I'm falling apart. The fear, all the difficulty, is the first phase. When you meet with a difficulty, humans don't like pain. We move away from it, and that's normal. And that shifts over time towards acceptance and it's absolutely acceptance and it's absolutely essential for growth that we come into a place of some degree of acceptance about what is happening to us.
Kate Codrington:And of course that's not a kind of permanent state. Oh, I was fighting. No, I'm perfectly accepting and that's done and dusted. Obviously we go backwards and forwards between the two. That's just how we are.
Kate Codrington:But the second phase of the menopause process, the whole process, is surrender, and this is a place where we come to deepen our relationship with ourselves, to really commit to loving ourselves, and that goes right across the board, through the way that we eat, of course, and the way, the sort of language we use for ourselves and, when we're tired, to allow ourselves to rest. So it really goes across the board and it kind of creates a sort of kind of creates a sort of sweetness in our lives that can heal just so much, because you don't get to 45, 35, 45, whenever you're experiencing perimenopause issues, without being wounded, without having been kicked around a bit in your life, because that's normal. So this is a time when the wounding from our lives is naturally more sensitive at this time, and this is a time when the wounding from our lives is naturally asking to be healed. Unfortunately, it's also a time when in our lives we're also extremely busy. So there's a major conflict right there that everybody understands.
Kate Codrington:But actually perimenopause is asking us to step back, to step away from life, to step towards ourselves, to actually lean in. That's the requirement, that's what's being asked of us, and it's really hard because we don't know that, nobody talks about it. You and I talk about this, but nobody said when we were 20, oh, you'll be great, you get so much done and it'll be so interesting in your 20s and 30s. And then I recommend you take a step back in your 40s. Imagine if you had been told that, jen, when you were 18.
Jenn Salib Huber:And it's hard to. I mean, as an 18 year old one, you think you know everything and you think that you're you finished growing up right, and so you really have to have a few years of life before you realize that. Okay, I actually know nothing, and maybe my parents knew something, but I find that, by the time you have some sensibilities about life, this concept of middle age or midlife still feels so far off in the distance that it's never going to happen to you, or it's so far in the future that you just can't imagine it. You just can't imagine it Because I keep thinking. I wish I had known how incredible this transition would be, how transformational, how powerful, how comforting, even, how much confidence and comfort I have found in the phase of acceptance.
Jenn Salib Huber:But it's really hard, and I want to come back to something that you said about the wounds demand to be healed. I think that was the words that you used, and the first thing that jumped to mind was the wounds that we have carried with us about our bodies and our body image, and because I see this very clearly now that anybody who has spent their lives trying to change or control what their body looks like through food and exercise, is confronted with their truth in midlife that they don't have the control that they thought and that the cost of maintaining that control becomes too great to maintain, and that wound is ripped open. Even if it felt like it was healed for a long time, it demands to be healed in a very different way, which creates a whole other layer of discomfort. But I love that imagery, so thank you for using those words.
Kate Codrington:Yeah, the construct of middle-aged is a misogynistic construct. Let's just name it for what it is. When I hear middle-aged, I hear associations in my mind. I'm a feminist, I'm pretty out there with it. But the misogyny is internalized in all of us. The body hatred is internalized in all of us. It just is, just is.
Kate Codrington:And when I hear middle-aged I hear something about a sort of absence of vitality, something a bit grey, a bit sad, a bit unattractive. This is the thing, and of course this is the thing. We're all gorgeous. We were gorgeous at 18. We are at 40 and 50 and we will be at 70. But the gorgeousness resides in a different way as we age. It's a process of refining. We refine our skills, we refine how we care for ourselves, we refine our calling, you know, with a big C. That's a bit of a scary thing, but what that means essentially is that we waste less time doing things that don't suit us Absolutely refinement. So I think it takes quite a lot of investigation, of discovery, of inquiry into our beliefs about what middle age is, about midlife, what we feel about aging and how we want to do it in our own way, because there are precious few role models out there. So how do you know who do you want to be when you grow up?
Kate Codrington:what a great question yeah, I want to be patty smith. I went to see patty smith this week. Oh, my god, I want to be. She's 77 and rocking it and she has. I mean, obviously there was like so much love in the theater but, um, she owns. Seeing a woman of 77 owning the stage, rocking out, using her voice obviously she's a performer, but also using her voice to, uh, to tell us, to remind us to be kind, to remind us to be inclusive, to remind us to create joy in our lives. It's like, yeah, that's who I want to be and that is not. Well, she's 77. That's not middle age, right? That's like you know. Hopefully she'll have another 20 years, that would be cool. That's more towards the end of her life, that's in the autumn of her life, and that has nothing to do with quiet, with grey, with sadness, with shutting down, with withdrawing from life. You know.
Jenn Salib Huber:Anyway, just saying that.
Kate Codrington:All this week I've been saying and did I tell you that I've been boring everybody?
Jenn Salib Huber:can we come off the seasons for a minute? Um, yeah, and anybody who wants more on this one, you can listen to the podcast from last season, which we'll link to in the show notes. Um, kate also has second spring, which was your first book. But let's talk a little. Can you just do a little recap of the seasons for anybody who hasn't heard this analogy before? Yes, I'd love to.
Kate Codrington:So if you take spring as being the time from your first period, you would be like spring. You would be sticking your nose out of the door and discovering about the world, discovering who you are in the world, quite, tender, always with the possibility of coming back into safety. So going out and coming back. Our summer years are in our 20s and 30s and there the desire is really for validation, for seeing our spirit being recognised, being enacted in the world so that we want to make change or be an activist or perform or have a family or a career. It's really about engaging with the world. So those are two very expansive seasons. And then autumn comes. Autumn is perimenopause and the atmosphere changes in autumn. As we know, we're recording this towards the end of September, so we're kind of in perimenopause season now. And for those in the Northern Hemisphere, if you look out of your window, the leaves are starting to drop and colour and the energy of autumn is to come back in towards ourselves. So in autumn we will be more sensitive, we will require more time, we will require more alone time, more nourishment, more warmth in general in the widest sense. General in the widest sense, and knowing this is an enormous relief, because many people pathologise this desire to be alone. We care less about our communities, we're withdrawing, we're coming back into ourselves to nourish, we're leaning in, or actually leaning in, and the winter is representative of the times when we're really resting, where we really have leaned in, where we're really engaged in resting and nourishing in a sort of dreamy way, where you have the advantage of having deep access to your intuition and knowing and your spirituality. And post-menopause there's a second spring, so this cycle continues whereby there are elements of teen spring. So, as we've referred to a bit earlier, we don't really know how do you do post-menopause. It's like, well, I don't know. Do I knit? Do I stay home? Of course I mean, I'm a yarn fanatic, I love to knit, but of course I'm not staying home. I live down the road from London. Of course I'm going out, going to gigs and running around and chatting on podcasts and writing, but I've got stuff to do before I go. So this second spring has this quality of rediscovering who we are like. Who do you want to be? Like that question who do you want to be when you grow up? And it's quite messy, to be fair. There's a lot of going out, overextending myself, doing too much, burning out again, coming back going. Oh yeah, okay, I really still have to take care of myself, and that's followed again by a second summer. So have a think about women in 65 to 75. So Patti Smith would be just a bit beyond that Now coming towards the end of her second summer.
Kate Codrington:These are the people who are typically in my community where I live, in the village where I live. They're the people who run the climate cafe, they're the people who are the activists, are the people who run the charities. They're the people who really care and connect with the community to make things happen. Or they're in pottery classes or they're taking up painting, or they're being grandparents, doing lots of childcare. There's a real kind of liberated engagement in that time and that is in the studies across all genders. The 60s are the time when we're most happy, and the most miserable time is when we're around 40. And that's true across all genders, regardless of perimenopause or hormonal shifts, any of that. We just get happier.
Jenn Salib Huber:And I love that you said that, because I bring up that research in the first episode this season about. You know, we have nice long-term studies of, you know, self-reported happiness before and after menopause and it is clear that we're happier after. But not enough people are talking about that. You know there's so much focus on what you lose. Oh, you lose muscle, you lose mobility, you lose, you lose, you lose.
Jenn Salib Huber:But what you gain is actually, I think, inner peace. You know, a real knowing of yourself, what you want, what you don't want, what you like, what you don't like, and a really clear path forward Because you're no longer motivated, like you were saying in your 20s and 30s. You know, by wanting to do, do, do the motivation for what you want to do and why just changes, just like the seasons change it. Just it's happening, but you have to notice it. I think you have to nurture it. I think the nurturing piece is what you do so well. You help put words to these rhythms and routines that people can kind of step into and fall into to help with these seasonal changes. I'd love to hear some more on your thoughts on creating rhythms and routines to support the change of season.
Kate Codrington:Yeah, the best thing for me is space. I think and this, you know, this is often life is so busy, ridiculously busy, it often feels out of our reach. But space spaciousness can be a moment, it can be a breath. It can be creating an extra five minutes between your Zoom meetings, where you do not scroll, where you gaze out of the window. It can be getting up five minutes earlier, definitely, if you possibly can not, starting with your phone.
Kate Codrington:I am a living experiment. Every day that I start with my phone is horrible. I feel horrible. My stress levels are automatically higher if I start doing that. When I start by pottering around the kitchen, making a cup of tea, scribbling in my journal or looking at the birds, it doesn't have to be anything very special, it doesn't have to be anything very fancy, but having that building that spaciousness into my morning, even if it's five minutes, sets the tone of my day. So I think that having rhythm, particularly you know, it's a really easy win. Low bar, I always start with what is easy. I mean I start and can end with what is easy and doable because, yeah, life is hard. So it's a really easy win to give a bit more spaciousness in your morning and do something that pleases you. I love my garden, I love the birds, so sitting and looking at the birds and wondering what's happening and looking at the plants is just an easy win for me and it totally sets up my day.
Jenn Salib Huber:It does. I love the visual of space, too, and bookending the day with space. So I'm the same as you I love when I can convince my future self to go to bed and leave my phone downstairs and wake up without it, because it absolutely changes how I start and end the day. So I'm going to try and use that visual of space, of bookending a day with space, to help with that intrinsic motivation that we're always trying to tap into Because it does it's a game changer that we're always trying to tap into because it does. It's a game changer. Um, waking up quietly, waking up without the intrusion of all the information that we have to start processing the minute our eyes open, um, or processing until the very last second we fall asleep yeah, yeah, because that you know, there there's.
Kate Codrington:I think we're chronically overstimulated, we think it's normal to have more and more and more and more stimulation and there's no end to it. And your friend will always tell you to listen to the podcast or read that article, or did you see so-and-so's post, or you catch up with your friends on social media or you Google something about whatever you're interested in, and it's normal to have more and more stimulation. But it's not good for us. It's not good for us and we need processing time.
Jenn Salib Huber:Let's talk about processing for a minute. So this lovely journal that has just come out. I love the recap of the seasons but in the interest of creating space and not taking up too much time, I also love how you have laid out the journal prompts Very, very simple five minutes and connecting to the season. Five minutes and connecting to the season.
Kate Codrington:One question that I have is how do people who don't have a cycle connect to the seasons? Thank you so much Because the journal it does say perimenopause journal on the front, but I have a sort of not particularly secret mission to have everybody, regardless of whether they menstruate or not, understand the seasons and how to care for themselves. Because it makes everything so easy, it gives us agency, it puts us in charge of what we need and it stops us overthinking, it stops the shame and it stops judgment. So, whether you have a menstrual cycle or not, you're. Why don't we all do this? We check in right now. How are you feeling?
Kate Codrington:So if you're feeling like you want to go, if you check in and you feel like you want to go back to bed, that's winter. If you check in and you feel a bit excited about what's Kate going to say next, that's a really interesting idea. That's spring. That's kind of inspiration. That's kind of inspiration, awe, wisdom, experimenting, playfulness, summer. I'm feeling very good and sick. If you look in the mirror in the morning, you're going hmm, hello, hot stuff, that's summer. You'll probably be stuffed full of oestrogen and the capacity to multitask. Hooray for you. Those days of the multitasking at least has gone for me and if you're feeling, how can I say? If you're noticing your needs, if you're noticing your vulnerability, if you're noticing strong feelings, if you're noticing internal or external critical voice, that will be autumn and there we are.
Kate Codrington:So it's really straightforward and through our days, whether you're menstruating or not, you will be feeling all these different things and just going instead of going. Oh God, I'm such a critical bitch. I really should work on my mindset because I really shouldn't have this thought about myself or about my friend or about that person on Instagram and I'm so negative and I'm awful and I hate my body and blah, blah, blah. Instead of going into that whole and Jen says that I should be doing this and Kate says I should be doing that Instead of going off on a complete overthinking spiral, you just go. Oh hello Autumn. I need more space. Boom. It's so simple. Such a capacity to complicate things, and life is already complicated in the world. So that that's the thing and that this is. This is what I'm encouraging in the journal every day to notice what season did I, what did I feel yesterday or you know, depending on when you're filling it in, what season did I feel and how did I care for that? I?
Jenn Salib Huber:like that reflection. What did I do? How did I nourish it? How did I lean in?
Kate Codrington:Very often I'm really tired and I don't have time to rest, so that's a really interesting thing to note. I didn't have time to rest today, so that's a really interesting thing to note. I didn't have time to rest today and just writing that down and there might be judgment or shame there or rage or all kinds of things in that statement. But looking back over a month of these little notes, or looking back over a year of these little notes, it has such a power. We get so much clarity out of very small things like that.
Jenn Salib Huber:So true, because you have to mark where you've been, to see where you've been, otherwise it just gets kind of lost in the ether of the past.
Kate Codrington:Yeah, we operate in a continual present where we feel, oh, I've always believed this, or this is the way it's always been. So we miss the nuance of change in our lives.
Jenn Salib Huber:I love that. Thank you for that. I want to end by sharing one of the things that I loved about this drawing this little beautiful image. People often say when I say you know menopause is going somewhere, good, just lean in and be excited. They'll say but, jen, I just don't know what there is to look forward to. And so the way that you describe spring, which can be post-menstruation or post-menopause, is three words wonder, playfulness and possibilities. Who wouldn't want to lean into that if you knew that was coming Right? So I just absolutely I love this. I love the work that you do, I love the words that you put to the work that you do, and thank you so much for bringing this conversation to us today.
Kate Codrington:Oh, thank you. I just want to close with the reminder that to really access this hope and possibilities and playfulness, that requires energy and that requires nourishment in your autumn and winter years.
Jenn Salib Huber:Yeah, absolutely, oh, my goodness, Thank you. Yes, you have something else to say.
Kate Codrington:No, that's the pointy finger. Nourish yourself now so how?
Jenn Salib Huber:so? I'm sure there's going to be lots of people who are very excited to learn more about you and this book and your work. Where can they learn more?
Kate Codrington:oh, thank you, my. I'm on instagram at kate underscore codrington and my. My website is Kate Codrington dot. Co dot, uk. I'm the only one with that. No, there is, there's an architect in Australia with the same name, so it's not hard to find me. And the perimenopause journal is available world. No, it's available in Europe and the UK and America and Canada at the moment and will be in Australia as well on the 1st of November.
Jenn Salib Huber:Well, that's very exciting. Thank you so much, kate. So last question what do you think is the missing ingredient in midlife?
Kate Codrington:I think it's love. I think there is an absence of love.
Jenn Salib Huber:Yes, I think that's a worldwide absence.
Kate Codrington:Yeah, it is. And before we get too glum about that, it's something that we can take agency over every day because we can always come back to how can I love myself right now? What would be lovely for me right now? We can always come back to that.
Jenn Salib Huber:That's a lovely thing to add in as we talk about in. Gentle Nutrition is what can you add in, and love is what you can add in. Yeah, amazing. Thank you so much Kate.
Kate Codrington:Thank you, Jen. I feel like I can't believe this is the end.
Jenn Salib Huber:I think it's just the end for now, I'm sure. Thank you, jen, always a joy to talk to you. Thanks for tuning in to this week's episode of the midlife feast. For more non diet, health, hormone and general midlife support, click the link in the show notes to learn how you can work and learn from me. And if you enjoyed this episode and found it helpful, please consider leaving a review or subscribing, because it helps other women just like you find us and feel supported in midlife.
