The Midlife Feast
The Midlife Feast
#158 - Why Good Girls Gossip: Reclaiming Female Connection in Midlife with Tova Leigh
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Have you ever hesitated to open up with other women because you feared judgment, competition, or being labeled as “too much”? If this hits home, I’ve got good news: you are not the problem.
In this episode, author and comedian Tova Leigh shares stories from her new book Good Girls Gossip and explains why reclaiming gossip, as deep, truth-sharing connection among women, is revolutionary. We talk about letting go of the “good girl” roles we’ve outgrown and what it means to live more authentically in midlife.
Tova introduces her powerful “and also” mindset, which allows space to be both messy and wise, uncomfortable and growing. It’s a simple shift that invites freedom from perfection and black-and-white thinking.
This is a conversation about real talk, shared wisdom, and the beauty of being witnessed by women who see you as you really are.
Connect with Tova
Good Girls Gossip is available now!
Instagram: @tova_leigh
Website: www.tovaleigh.com
Like what you learned? Check out these other episodes!
Unfiltered Motherhood in Midlife with Tova Leigh
We Need to Stop Pretending We Don't Have Time for Self-Care with Heather Chauvin
Why You Need to Put Capacity, Self-Compassion, & Self-Care on the Menu
Ditch the “I’ll be good today” loop in 5 days with the Midlife Morning Makeover Email Challenge! ☀️ Head to menopausenutritionist.ca/morningmakeover
Looking for more about midlife, menopause nutrition, and intuitive eating? Click here to grab one of my free guides and learn what I've got "on the menu" including my 1:1 and group programs. https://www.menopausenutritionist.ca/links
Hi and welcome to the Midlife Feast, the podcast for women who are hungry for more in this season of life. I'm your host, dr Jenn Salib-Huber. I'm an intuitive eating dietitian and naturopathic doctor and I help women manage menopause without dieting and food rules. Come to my table, listen and learn from me trusted guest experts in women's health and interviews with women just like you. Each episode brings to the table juicy conversations designed to help you feast on midlife. And if you're looking for more information about menopause, nutrition and intuitive eating, check out the midlife feast community, my monthly membership that combines my no nonsense approach that you all love to nutrition with community, so that you can learn from me and others who can relate to the cheers and challenges of midlife.
Jenn Salib Huber:What comes to mind when you hear the word good girl and gossip? I'm going to guess that probably not really positive things come to mind. The pressure to be good often shows up around food, our bodies, motherhood, caregiving and gossip always has this negative connotation. But my guest today, author, performer and digital creator, tova Lee, is here to tell us about why good girls gossip, and the play on words is that it's not good girls don't gossip. It's very intentionally good girls gossip. She's written this book and we're talking about it today and I really think that anybody who can relate to the perfectionism, people pleasing, never feeling good enough but also just craving connection in midlife, will appreciate this conversation. Thanks to Tova for joining me. I hope you enjoyed this episode of the Midlife Feast. Thanks to Tova for joining me. I hope you enjoyed this episode of the Midlife Feast. Hi Tova, welcome back to the Midlife Feast.
Tova Leigh:Hey, nice to see you again. Thank you for having me.
Jenn Salib Huber:Well, I'm first congratulations. This is book number what for you? Three, four, Three, four, Four. That's exciting, and so this book which is just out is Good Girls Gossip. But in between that, when you see the cover, there's a line that's the word don't, and it's crossed out. I'm really excited to talk to you about this book, but just tell me a little bit about how this came about, because I love how all your books have themes and this one felt like it was. It was it felt themed, but different than the other books. So tell me a little bit about it.
Tova Leigh:So I'm actually really glad you said that, because that's how I feel. I feel like this book is different. I always like to talk about what's going on in my life. This is what I've done on my blog and hopefully I'm always trying to be really transparent and authentic and talk from you know my own experience and where I am, and that's how the blog started um 10 years ago now. Can't believe it, oh my God, I know.
Jenn Salib Huber:And I think on our first podcast I had said that that's how I found you was your blog and just how relatable it was, and you know, especially on the motherhood stuff. So now that you're in your 40s I love that. You know I can connect to what you're saying again. But anyway, go ahead. I interrupted.
Tova Leigh:Yeah, that's right, because it's been 10 years, it was 2015. And I was 39, just turning 40. And my kids were still little and motherhood was definitely the thing at the front and that was what the blog initially started. That's what it was about. And so Good Girls Gossip still kind of, I think is a lot about the things that I'm interested in, which is obviously women. You know our needs, our I don't know our pleasure, body, body image, all these things, sexuality, all these things. But it is different in a sense that I wanted it to be a practical book. So, fuck, dead 40 was again delved into a lot of these scenes.
Tova Leigh:But this one is a more practicable book and the reason it came about was because I moved to Portugal three years ago and in the space of these three years, I ran four female empowerment retreats in the Algarve. And the reason why I started doing those was because I realized that, while the online community has been amazing and, I do think, has given a lot of women in all parts of the world a sense of belonging, because you come to a community that says to you hey, I'm not crazy, I feel the same, I'm going through similar things whether it's motherhood, perimenopause, I don't know. Suddenly your libido's down, your libido's up. You don't know what's going on. You have to reinvent yourself for the one millionth time, because that's what we do as women and all these things. And you're like, I'm not crazy, I'm not alone, these things. And you're like, I'm not crazy, I'm not alone. It's still quite isolated because it's online and it's not in person and you don't get the sense of sisterhood and community that comes with looking at someone's eyes and hugging and holding someone's hand and, just, you know, having this kind of like very in-person direction.
Tova Leigh:So I started doing these female empowerment retreats and every retreat has around 18 women and I've had the privilege of meeting amazing women through this retreat and seeing firsthand what happens when you put women in a room and they sit in a circle. We sit in a circle and it's a safe space and that's really all you need. I mean, honestly, I can't even. It's on it, it's blew my mind. You know I offer a lot of things that are like the cherry on top the massage, the boat trip, the whatever. But it's not about that. It really is about the women who sit together and share stories and wisdom and listen and empathy and all these things, it's that sisterhood.
Tova Leigh:And then I thought, wow, what, how did we lose that? Like, how, like, how, how? Because you know a lot of women would write and say I want to do the retreat, but I'm a little bit worried. Gosh, how am I going to spend five days with just women? What about the cattiness? Yeah, what about the competition? What if it's going to be awful? You know all this and actually there's none of that. There's just none of that.
Tova Leigh:And and I thought, and obviously in the retreat we do a lot of, you know, a lot of exercises and different workshops about all these topics, and it has been quite life-changing, I think, for quite a lot of the women who have come on these retreats. And I thought you know what I got to put it in a book form. Like, I just got to put it in a book format because not everybody can take five days out of their life and travel, you know, far away and, and, and, and spend a lot of money and all that type of thing. So so that's how the book came about, basically, that's. I love that, yeah.
Jenn Salib Huber:I can relate to everything you're saying about the retreats, um, you know cause? I run them as well, and it's exactly that. It's that coming together in person, connecting and sharing the storytelling you know and the storytelling of the lives that we've lived up until now, which is a lot of life lived. You know we have a lot to say, okay so, but let's talk about the good girl part, because one of the themes that I see in my community and it feels like every conversation is trying to uncouple from this people-pleasing perfectionist, you know, good girl ideal that many of us grew up with. So tell us a little bit about how this good girl concept showed up for you.
Tova Leigh:Wow, gosh, where do I start?
Jenn Salib Huber:Yeah, how did you shed it? Like we can condense it because the book covers a lot of it. You've got lots of good stories in there about that. But, like you know what was the, what was kind of the pinnacle of it showing up, and you know, and how did you start to let go of that?
Tova Leigh:I think, like for me this has been a real journey actually and, uh, something that I did touch on in the first book Fucked at 40. Um, I have a chapter there that's called a daddy's little girl and, you know, although it's not called good girl, but it was daddy's little good girl, you know what I mean. And um, yeah, you know the expectations, the roles you play in society but in your family structure, whatever that is, I feel that in my 40s I sort of I set it all on fire so I'm not recommending people, but I was like, fuck this, I'm not going to be a good girl anymore and I'm just going to go in and break down everything.
Tova Leigh:It's not necessarily how you should probably go about it and break down everything. It's not necessarily how you should probably go about it, but but I think it was a real yeah it's been a real process of going. Actually, who am I? For me, because I sort of realized I was like so many things but for other people, like whether it's for my parents, for my, for my partner, for my children, for my friends but it was never like what's the standalone version of me, like what does that look like, you know? Um, so I had to go through this kind of like almost like I quit all my jobs, like not my job as in work, but like I quit, like I'm not going to be for, like I quit everything, and then having to come back to a place where I felt like, okay, now I figured out like who I am and, by the way, you never really figure it out because you're constantly changing, evolving, et cetera but at least I'm able to speak my truth, even when it's not very nice, even when it's messy and people don't like it. But I'm okay with that. Now, you know, and maybe that's the breakdown of the good girl.
Tova Leigh:But obviously in this book, good Girls Gossip, it's a play on words, because the idea is that I tell a story that when I was little I gossiped and someone said to me good girls don't gossip. And actually, in a roundabout way, I've come back to realize, well, first of all, what, what the hell is good girl? But in a play on words it's like well, good girls actually do gossip because and we can I don't know if you want to talk about the whole reclaiming of the word yeah, because in my, the way I see it now and I know some people might see the title and go like what Gossip is bad, of course, if you're bad mouthing someone, that's not very kind, of course actually mean what we know it to mean today and really did in fact mean close friendships, a lot of the times between women, and a lot of the times it was the talk that women had in spaces that were very much women's spaces, like, for example, during childbirth, you know. Yeah, and then over time this word got like hijacked and vilified because it was in fact a way to silence women, because and there's a reason for it, because actually that's where our superpower is, it's exactly in how we are great.
Tova Leigh:You know we're good communicators and our ability to share knowledge and stories and actually carry stories down through generations, that wisdom, that is our biggest strength. Community, that's our strength. So imagine telling us actually that's idle and that's silly, and you know all that as a way to silence, to take away that, that. That the very essence of what it means to like a sisterhood. So when I sort of realized that everything, it made sense to me that, together with seeing firsthand what actually happens when you put women together and they just talk, just talk.
Jenn Salib Huber:Can we call it a gossip of women now, instead of, like you know, a gaggle of geese, or like pros.
Tova Leigh:Maybe we should just be calling ourselves like a gossip of women now, instead of, like you know, a gaggle of geese or like a murder of crows.
Jenn Salib Huber:Maybe we should just be calling ourselves like a gossip of women.
Tova Leigh:Oh, I love that. I love that. Yes, we should get t-shirts.
Jenn Salib Huber:But it's like so many other things in our culture that have been co-opted to keep women quiet and small. And sharing storytelling, connecting over our shared experiences, whether it's childbirth or hot flashes or sisterhood or marriage or loneliness or whatever it is to gossip about it in a positive way means that we're not keeping those stories to ourselves, sharing them, so I'm 100% about reclaiming that. When I read that part in the book, I was so excited.
Tova Leigh:And also I like the idea, the way I see it, because you know you, I do so in the story. I share my stories. I share like stories from my past. I also share stories about other women. Obviously I changed their names and any kind of you know things that could help you identify who they are. Of course, but the point is that you know I talk sometimes about my friends, never in a bad way.
Tova Leigh:The gossip. So that's gossip, but the way I see it, we are. It is a way to witness other people's lives. It is a way to witness other people's lives. First of all. You talk about your friends sometimes because you're concerned. You talk about your friends because you're proud of them and you're really happy for, you know, for something great that's going on in their life. But you also talk about them sometimes as a way to reflect on your life and you talk about it because you're witnessing their lives. Like it's, there's so many different. You know, there's so many different things that go into that Of. There's so many different things that go into that. Of course there's also just talking shit about people and that's not what I mean. That's not where this is.
Jenn Salib Huber:But we do, we learn, we learn from each other.
Tova Leigh:I love it when someone says, when I go like, oh, this is happening, and someone says, oh, but you know what? My friend, so-and-so, she went through something similar and actually this is what she learned. I'm like this is it? Like, is that gossip, like, or is that just do you know what I mean? Like that's, that's great. Because then I go, gosh, there's one more person, one more woman in the world who's gone through this. It's funny. I didn't, I never. I didn't mention that in this book.
Tova Leigh:But the thing that came to my mind now, when I had my twins many, many years ago, I was like I and I was losing my shit and I was really at a very, very low, low, low.
Tova Leigh:I was I, I I decided not to breastfeed and of course, at that point I felt immense guilt about it and I'm I'm over it now Like if you're, if you don't want to breastfeed, it's fine, if you can't breastfeed, it's fine, it's not a problem. But my point is that back then it was a really big deal for me and I felt, you know, immense guilt and I was kind of torn about it. And a friend said to me oh, listen, so-and-so, my friend, she also has twins and she didn't breastfeed and you know, and this is how what she went through and and that was really helpful. And then she got her on the phone, rings me up, total stranger, and just has this great conversation with me and you know, till this day I think about this woman who I've never met in real life. You know, you know and just go like we need to talk, we just need to talk, we need to talk.
Jenn Salib Huber:And I mean so much of what is online is, you know, curated and filtered and we only see the good things and we don't see the shit in lives. And you know gossip is something that is like reserved for talking shit about celebrities. And you know gossip is something that is like reserved for talking shit about celebrities and you know there's there isn't the connection, part of the of sharing those stories. As we talked about in the first time.
Jenn Salib Huber:I also had twins and you know that experience of. I mean, I grew up an only child, my husband grew up an only child. We had one older daughter who was two, and all of a sudden we have three kids under three and I was so grateful when someone connected me with another twin mom because it's the same but different. You know, when you have two babies and so much of it is completely different, you're outnumbered all of a sudden and you know it feels really lonely and there's nothing you know gossipy in a negative sense about sharing your story with someone else and even if that person is saying, hey, my friend is having a really hard time, that's not gossip, you know. I think so much of the intention behind the word is is what we need to reclaim.
Tova Leigh:And actually I think even more so, the whole idea of like, what women are like to each other. And and do you know what I mean Like? Is this so like? And especially with that word? So it's like gossip girl, mean girl, mingle culture, all that type of thing. And, like I said, a lot of women were very concerned about the idea of just just being in a, in a place where it's just women.
Tova Leigh:But I feel like we've been lied to. You know I talk a lot about the. You know the whole theory, the 80-20 theory. I mean that's where it kind of, yeah, because you know our entire purpose on this planet is to find a man and if there are so few men then of course we're in competition. But this was all a lie, narrative to begin with, you know. So it's reclaiming much more than the word gossip. You know it's actually reclaiming uh, you know that sisterhood, the. I call it the pack culture. You know um, because we are a pack um. Recently in the last retreat, we were walking um, we were walking on the road like a bunch of us, so it's like 20 women and it's like talking and laughing, and you know what women are like like when we're alone, men would be shocked. Yes, so like we're like, and this one lonely guy comes walking towards us and you should have seen his face and he literally crossed the road to get out of our way, and that's what we're reclaiming, you know that it's so funny, oh my gosh.
Jenn Salib Huber:It reminded me. In April I was in Morocco for my retreat and we had a driver who was like our driver for our van and he was our driver, for I think it was five days that we had this van, or however many days it was, and he was our driver, for I think it was five days that we had this van, or however many days it was, and it was so funny because we had a couple of long stretches of five hours going into the desert and it would be so hilarious. Sometimes I would just watch the rearview mirror to see his face as we were talking and we would just be like are you doing okay, buddy? Are you doing all right? But yeah, when we get together, we connect and that can. That connection is, um, yeah, it's, it's magical.
Tova Leigh:And you know what else I think people don't think about.
Tova Leigh:I certainly didn't think about like. When it comes to even like, um, this is something very recently, I didn't really touch on it in the book but like female, even female touch, you know we don't have enough of it. Like, think about that. Just like a non-sexual touch with a woman, a hug Like it's. You know you hug a lot, like your partner maybe, and you know, if you're in a heterosexual relationship and you're like hugging your partner, it might be a man, but like I don't know. I think about it. I meet up with my friends and I'll give them a hug, but like, when do we really embrace our friends? And female touch is so needed between women. Isn't that odd that we don't do that? Like, I will hug and cuddle my kids, obviously, and they happen to be all girls, but do you know what I mean? But I'm in the position of a mother, so I'm in the position of giving. It's not, do you?
Tova Leigh:know, what I mean it's not receiving. Um, yeah, anyway, that just came to my mind.
Jenn Salib Huber:No, but it's true. It's true, and I mean, especially as, as kids get older, um, you know, like when you, when you have young children, if you're a mother or a parent, when you have young children, you know, you're, uh, you know you're, you know you're touched too much, you're touched out, you really start to crave it because it's not there 24, seven anymore. They're not in your bed, they're not, you know, running to you at the end of the day and, yeah, no, it's so true, you talk a lot about in all your books, but you talk a lot about kind of your experience of motherhood, which I think is an important part of the storytelling. And it felt like, as I was reading this book, that there's been kind of this shift in midlife and it's been about like finding yourself again and like reclaiming parts of yourself. What has been the biggest surprise?
Tova Leigh:In finding myself.
Jenn Salib Huber:Or what you found.
Tova Leigh:Yeah, what I found the biggest surprise, um, I don't know if it's been a surprise, but I guess, like I've accepted that, um, it's gonna come in waves, that maybe there is no end to the like you know again, like being goal, goal orientated, like there's a destination to get to is also quite, you know it's quite uh, linear kind of like.
Tova Leigh:You know it's like a very straight line type of thinking which I I used to to have. Maybe I still do, sometimes, trying to sort of free myself from that. You know, and it's not about like, oh, enjoy the moment and be in the moment, like it's also that. But it's not that, it's just actually this is so much fun. You know this bit is so much fun. You know this is the bit where you're curious.
Tova Leigh:This is the bit where you're just like I don't know. This is the fun bit, like why do I want to get to somewhere? So yeah, so I feel like I'm enjoying the sort of the, the figuring out and and really with an actual acceptance of I might never figure it out, and actually that's totally fine. I don't know if I answered your question.
Jenn Salib Huber:Something you just said too, which is kind of a nice way for us to tie this all together is the never needing to figure it out, right. So you know, in our 20s and 30s, at least this is how I felt, and when I talk to people, I get the sense too that like we were really focused on like getting to wherever we were going right, Something that you say you had a little box in your book, the, and also yeah, and this is something that anybody who's worked with me or listeners will recognize, because I'm always talking about using and statements. You know, like we don't have to choose one or the other. It doesn't have to be all or nothing, black or white thinking.
Jenn Salib Huber:But imagine though how better the world would be if everybody did that right, and what I loved about the way you described it is that, instead of just saying and you're replacing the word or, which I think adds another kind of layer of understanding to the point of it, is it really highlights that you don't have to have it all figured out. You can be confused as hell and also trying to figure it out. It doesn't have to be sorted by the time that you enter or leave midlife, whatever that looks like.
Tova Leigh:Yeah, I find it to be one of the most life-changing tools that I've ever come across. And it sounds so stupid because it's so simple. It's so simple, it's you know, but it really is life-changing. First of all, as I'm a big believer that language is so fundamental, like you know. It's it because this is our first mean of communication, which, by the way, slightly annoys me, disappoints me, because it's so limited. Blah, blah, blah and I talk about that in the book as well like who am I? Oh, I'd like to express that in a dance or music if I knew how to create music, you know, or just like I don't know whatever.
Tova Leigh:But but you know, it's the first thing that we have, but it puts us in such, it restrains us so much, it puts you in such a box so to at least be able to say and also and this and that, be able to say and also and this, and that it at least makes it slightly less rigid. And I remember when I was just doing the stuff online, people would get very confused, so they'd go, oh, hang on a minute, like no, no, no, sorry, I only followed you because you do comedy. What's this video now about sexism? It's a bit too serious for my liking. Or the other way around oh, hang on a minute. I thought you were about feminism, but now you're doing this silly video where you're prancing around knickers in the garden and I don't think that's very feminist at all.
Tova Leigh:Do you know what I mean? And for me it was like but I'm loads of things and actually so are you, and actually there can be contradictions. Who said there? Couldn't? Someone just made that rule up? There are contradictions, so it's just a more, it's like a softer way of approaching yourself, your life, your opinions, just everything doesn't have to be so rigid.
Jenn Salib Huber:Yeah, I use that example all the time. When I'm working with people with body image. I'm feeling so uncomfortable in my body. It has changed so much. It feels like nothing's working. But they come in feeling like the only alternative is to love their body all the time. And both can be true. You can feel very uncomfortable and you can be working to learn how to change that and so just softening around the edges of those beliefs just makes it so much easier.
Jenn Salib Huber:So thank you for that little extra layer of that it's really replacing, or which I think is. I love that. So thank you for that. Thank you so much for writing this book, for sharing a little bit about it. As I always ask people, what do you think is the missing ingredient in midlife?
Tova Leigh:Wow, missing ingredient in midlife? Uh, um, I think for women and it's changing now more so is again having the information out there, having people listen, listen and take. You know, take what we're saying seriously. Again, I feel like it's changing, but still especially and I have the most immense respect, obviously to healthcare providers but I have heard so many horror stories from women who just have to suffer for a very long time, especially with menopause, perimenopause symptoms, and just not getting taken seriously and not getting the help that we actually need. So I really appreciate that more conversations around that is happening. I think, yeah, that's probably a slightly missing ingredient, but otherwise I love it, I love, love, love. I love getting older. I love. I think it's the best thing for women.
Jenn Salib Huber:Like just yeah, the sort of like fuck it moments, one after the other, so great, um, yeah, yes, I think this will show up backwards, but this is my favorite mug of all time.
Tova Leigh:It's a bit blurry. Oh yeah, perfect, perfect.
Jenn Salib Huber:Yeah, okay. Thank you so much, tova, for joining me, and all the best with this fourth book. It is a fabulous read and thanks for bringing it into the world.
Tova Leigh:No, thank you so much. Thanks for having me.
Jenn Salib Huber:Thanks for tuning in to this week's episode of the midlife feast. For more non-diet, health, hormone and general midlife support, click the link in the show notes to learn how you can work and learn from me. And if you enjoyed this episode and found it helpful, please consider leaving a review or subscribing, because it helps other women just like you find us and feel supported in midlife.
