The Midlife Feast

#174: How to Rebuild Your Habits in Midlife: A Kinder, Science-Backed Approach with Signe Darpinian, LMFT

• Jenn Salib Huber RD ND • Season 6 • Episode 174

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Sometimes the routines that feel the hardest to change are the ones that once helped us cope. In this episode, therapist and eating-disorder specialist Signe Darpinian breaks down how those patterns get wired into the brain, why diet culture reinforces them, and how midlife is actually an ideal time to reshape habits with clarity and compassion.

We dig into what it really takes to unwind the patterns that feel automatic, especially the ones that show up at the end of a long day or week. You’ll hear how small, well-timed shifts can loosen the grip of old routines and create space for choices that actually feel good.

We also explore simple tools for calming the mental swirl that fuels cravings and second-guessing, along with a gentler approach to movement and nourishment that supports energy, mood, and a steadier sense of self. It’s all about building habits that fit your real life, not forcing yourself into rigid rules.

If you’re stepping away from dieting and looking for routines that feel kinder, more sustainable, and more you, this conversation offers encouragement, clarity, and a practical path forward.

Connect with Signe Darpinian

Grab the Book:  A Woman's Guide to Menopause, Body Image, and Emotional Well-being at Midlife
Instagram: @therapyrockspodcast
Website: www.signedarpinian.com

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Jenn Salib Huber:

Welcome to the Midlife Feast, the podcast that helps you make sense of your body, your health, and menopause in the messy middle of midlife. I'm Dr. Jen Salib Huber, intuitive eating dietitian and naturopathic doctor, and author of Eat to Thrive During Menopause. Around here, we don't see midlife and menopause as problems to solve, but as invitations to live with more freedom, trust, and joy. Each week you'll hear real conversations and practical strategies to help you feel like yourself again, eat without guilt, and turn midlife from a season of survival into a season of thriving. I'm so glad you're here. Let's dig in. Are you one of those people who often says, I have lots of good habits, or I have lots of bad habits, or I wish I could switch some of my habits, or, you know, I heard someone say the other day, my habits, I have good habits, but my habits need an upgrade. If that's you and you're in midlife and you're thinking, I don't know if I can learn new habits, I really, really, really want you to listen to this conversation with Signa Darpion, who's a licensed marriage and family therapist, certified eating disorder specialist, and host of her own podcast called Therapy Rocks. And she's also an author of a couple of books. One is No Way Raising Body Positive Teens, and her upcoming book, which I was honored to contribute the nutrition section to, A Woman's Guide to Menopause, Body Image, and Emotional Wellbeing at Midlife. It comes out on December 8th, and it's available wherever books are sold. But what we're talking about today is habits, because whether we're talking about food or movement or even the habit of dieting, which comes up quite a bit in our conversation, the process, the habit science involved in recognizing the habit, replacing the habit, and creating these new routines is actually pretty straightforward. So if you've struggled to change your habit around movement, or if you've had struggled to change your habit around taking your lunch to work, you will really enjoy this podcast. It's full of really practical tidbits. And as you can see, Cygna is a fantastic resource for those of us in midlife. Welcome to the Midlife Feast, Cigna. How are you? So nice to be here, Jen. I'm great. Oh, and it's so fun. You're in California. I'm in the Netherlands. We're literally on, you know, the other side of the world, and yet we can connect to have this conversation. I love that. So tell us, you know, people who are new to you, um, you know, I've introduced you a little bit of, you know, kind of who you are and things like that, but tell me a little bit about your work.

Signe Darpino:

Okay, let's see. Um, I am a licensed marriage and family therapist, which always sounds confusing to people because they're like, you do couples work. I could, but I don't. Um, I'm I'm pretty single always, so I don't know that you'd want to come to me for couples work. It might not work out for you. Uh, so I'm a licensed marriage family therapist and I treat eating disorders under that scope of practice. And so I'm also um a sed, so certified eating disorder specialist. And I have been treating eating disorders, disordered eating, body image across the lifespan now for 25 years. I mean, if we're gonna count the really green days. And if we're counting, I'm counting them. Yeah, I'm a little embarrassed about them, but let's count them. So it's been a while. So it's been kind of cool because I've seen really different trends.

Jenn Salib Huber:

Yeah. So really funny because I've also been in practice for almost 25 years. So I think that a lot of the trends and the transformations that I've gone through personally and professionally, you can probably relate to many of those. I can totally relate to those. Yeah.

Signe Darpino:

You know, remember back in the day where it was just more straightforward. People were doing, you know, diets like Jenny Craig, and now it's like wellness culture is seeped into diet culture, and it gets kind of it gets, well, very confusing. Yeah.

Jenn Salib Huber:

And the morality of it all.

Signe Darpino:

The morality.

Jenn Salib Huber:

The morality of it all. Yeah. Okay. It's taken different forms. And habit science. Now, regular listeners will know, and certainly feasters in my community will know that I've got a lot of habit science in my back pocket. And I love teaching it, I love using it, and I find it really empowering. But why don't we start at the beginning? What is a habit?

Signe Darpino:

Okay. Okay, so I'm gonna start. I'm just gonna take us on a quick little quick journey about how I got interested in habit. Yeah. And um, so it starts with me going to an academy of eating disorder conference that that happened to be in the San Francisco Bay Area. And, you know, they're typically all over the world. This one was close to home because I'm over in the Bay Area as well. And the Columbia Eating Disorder team was there presenting habits, using habit um as a food model. So habit formation and habit reversal around food. And I just found it fascinating because I had never really thought about the habit component when we're treating disordered eating and eating disorders. And then, so I think I found it even more interesting than most of my colleagues. You know, I keep talking about it. They're like, I don't, I mean, it's okay, whatever, but I've never lost interest. And then a couple months later, I was reading Scientific American magazine, which I'm not sure why. I mean, I don't want to do any false advertising here. That's not like a regular for me. Um, but then I saw the the a habit article written by their team as well. And so um I ended up interviewing their team uh separately, and they, Columbia's team, ended up doing excerpts for each of our books. So I have a teen book called No Way. Um, when I say I, I mean we. They're our two co-authors, and they contributed to the habit formation section of that book, and they contributed again in Raising Body Positive Teens, which is our parent book. And more recently, Dr. Joanna Steinglass, and I'll be using her neuroscience paradigm here. She contributed to um habit formation as it relates to movement in my forthcoming menopause book. So I'll get to that. But anyway, that's the foundation. That's how I became interested. And so I will, she says it's really important to point out which habit, you know, um definition you're using. And so hers is from a neuroscience perspective, which I guess is is a bit different than a behavioral science perspective. But anyway, so um, okay, so I like to start with this. Uh, first of all, habit is it's a word that we use all the time. So it's like, yeah, like you said, what do we mean when we say habit? Because we're so used to saying, oh, it's a habit, it's what is a habit? So a habit. So when I'm speaking about habit in this particular talk, I'm talking about behaviors that are learned. They're not reflexes, um, or something that we're born with, and they develop over time. And so, as you know, think of this idea as we learn to do the same thing over and over in the same setting. What eventually happens is it shifts and it starts to um it shifts to a more entrenched part of the brain. And Jen, I've got one for you. I was like, what what example could I use for Jen right now? Um, my daughter is has her learner's permit. And I don't know what goes on in Amsterdam, but we over here the learner's permit happens at 15 and a half. And so it on a regular basis, I'm in the passenger seat, and unfortunately, practice makes perfect, right? And so I I mean I don't like that she has to practice because I feel like it puts my life at risk a little bit, you know. But but there's no other way to there's no other way, and so she is um le doing it, repeating a behavior over and over in the same context, in this, in this case in the car, right? And I'm witnessing somebody repeating, so obviously, whatever, or I don't know if it's obvious, but whatever we repeat indoors, and so I'm witnessing this process of being really terrified in the beginning, and I'm I'm slowly becoming less terrified because it is slowly getting into a more entrenched part of the brain, I guess you could speak. So driving is is a perfect example.

Jenn Salib Huber:

Yeah, that is a good example.

Signe Darpino:

Yeah, yeah. And so think about us like when we're driving from, I mean, a lot of people are working from home nowadays, right? But when we weren't working at home and we would drive from from home to work, it's like, you know, it's so subconscious. It's that that that route is is in that entrenched part, that deeper structure in the brain. And Columbia, Columbia's team um says that it, you know, when it when it's a habit and it's in an entrenched part of the brain, it's the doral excuse me, it's the dorsal stratum. And so we would be driving to work, kind of like our conscious brain sort of wandering around, doing other things, hopefully not too many, and our subconscious would kick in and drive the car. So interesting to witness her learning the habit. So, so that, and then one other thing that that um that they talk about, they they will sometimes use the the animal model for neuroscience habit. And so we can all relate, and we've all heard a little bit about the animal model, but it would be like a rat is in a cage, sort of maybe sort of flailing around, hopefully in a in a fun way. That um, and maybe the rat sort of accidentally presses a lever and gets cheese. So presses the lever, gets reward. Um, the rat is gonna tend to keep on, you know, repeating that behavior over and over again. Press the lever, get the cheese, press the lever, get the cheese. Well, eventually the rat will come to a place after practicing that behavior over and over, we'll get to a place where it may touch the lever, not get any cheese, but the but the behavior will still endure. So that is how they're defining um now that habit is in that deeper structure in in the dorsal stratium. It is is it is in an entrenched space. And I think that's important for the context of our conversation today because it's it's a part of the brain that's harder to access. And so when we're thinking about eating disorders um and disordered eating and the habit component, um it really brings relief to people to understand that, like, oh, this thing I've been trying to not do, I need more support because it's in in the part of a brain, in the part of my brain that is really hard to access. Yeah. And so there's a lot of relief that comes in understanding the habit model, at least as it relates to eating disorder treatment. And um, the last thing I'll say about that before going any further is that um their team really does a good job, and I learned from them that, you know, uh when we think of eating disorders and especially eating disorders in midlife and beyond, I mean, I have people who are in their early 60s who have and I've had people in their late 70s who have had their eating disorder or disordered eating since middle school. And when you have a case like that where it is so entrenched, they come in feeling like, well, I didn't even, you know, think about seeking eating disorder care because or a recovery because I just didn't think it was possible for me. I have had it for so long. And so using habit reversal work, especially in those cases where the behaviors are so entrenched, um is really important. And I I just want to note that it is about the habit and it's not about the habit. Of course, eating disorder I don't want to trivialize eating disorders. So there is a definitely a habit component, and I think it gets left out a lot, but I'm not at all implying that eating disorders are just a habit.

Jenn Salib Huber:

No, exactly. And I think this is why it's important to define what a habit is. You know, the habit is the shortcut that your brain takes, and when it has taken that shortcut enough times, it creates an even shorter shortcut. Right. And it makes it not permanent because I think the discussion of neuroplasticity is so relevant here, but you know, it makes it so that it's even easier. You know, the interesting thing about using the word habit reversal or that language, I have a son with Tourette syndrome. And when he was diagnosed with Tourette syndrome, one of the ways that he learned to manage them was using habit reversal therapy. So this is something that is actually has so many applications because it's based on neuroscience.

Signe Darpino:

It does. And you know, it's interesting because in the Scientific article, Scientific American article, they talked about how it's also in that particular article, they brought up how it is treatment for tracotellomania. And for the listeners, for the listeners, that's like um um well, the habit of hair pulling. Yeah. Right. And so they use habit reversal work. It's just really um and and I think it also really helps uh people that are in in recovery from their eating disorder understand that, like, oh, okay, so like in the beginning of this disordered eating pattern, um, I might have been doing some things that were intentional, depending on how you want to think about that. But then now at this point, it's like it's it's in a part, again, like of the brain that is so hard to access. So at one point, I might have been intentionally engaging in weight loss. Uh, but at this point, it's just like so another definition I like of habit is like the thing that we start doing before we even know that we are. So it's like telling yourself, you know, I'm not gonna with a client maybe that has uh binge eating disorder, you know, and tends to binge in the evening, which is a pretty common time to binge, it's like this idea of telling herself that day, waking up and saying, like, don't do that later tonight. It's like that that's not a very powerful part of the brain. Uh, the part of the brain where the behavior actually resides is like a million times stronger, which I'm just using that term loosely.

Jenn Salib Huber:

Yeah. And you know, and I think that what a lot of people, even people who have not had eating disorders, just people who identify as chronic dieters, who may have uh many or some patterns or behaviors that would be considered disordered eating. The habit of dieting. Yes, the habit of dieting a pattern that your brain has to respond to those feelings of discomfort that you have in your body.

Signe Darpino:

Yes. And it's a ha it's a dieting, a habit of dieting, I love that term. Um, that's also very culturally sanctioned. And so, you know, I had a client just recently say, like, it never just even occurred to me to not diet. Nobody around me is telling me to not diet. Yeah.

Jenn Salib Huber:

So I I like that. So what we've been talking about here is that, you know, habits aren't just willpower based. They're not a choice that we it may start as a choice, something that we try or something that we want to do. But if they work, and I'm using air quotes, if they serve a purpose that has a positive outcome, then our brain is going to remember that. And our when our brain remembers it, it creates an even stronger connection to it. And that is where the habit piece gets really entrenched. And so when we're talking about habits in midlife, and you know, a lot of the people who are listening and the people who work with me are people who are in the messy middle of coming out of diet culture. They're trying to find a new way forward into this new world with a bit more kindness, a bit more peace, but they're also interested in healthy habits, you know, the behaviors that are going to help them in this next season of life. But because their programming has come from their dieting days or their eating disorder days, it feels like they kind of come up against a brick wall, right? It's like, well, I want to eat more vegetables. But as soon as I think about that, I go into thinking that I have to eat all vegetables all the time. And or with movement, which we're really going to get into shortly, it's, well, if I don't do it seven days a week for this specified amount of time, that it doesn't feel right. So we really do have to understand some of the how do we change our habits? Like how do we start to really work with that process? Right.

Signe Darpino:

You made me think of something uh that I forgot to bring in. And, you know, when we're using the animal model for habit, and we're talking about the rat who maybe, you know, uh innocuously hits the lever, gets the cheese, gets that reward. I mean, just think about diet culture, right? So engage in intentional weight loss, and there is so much reward, typically secondary gain coming um not our way, but like, you know, our clients' way, right? This this uh this positive response about the weight loss. So, and of course, the reward is very personalized. The reward is very different for everybody, but that's a really common one. So that would be the reward, and then you've got those two things paired together. It's sort of the perfect storm, right?

Jenn Salib Huber:

And a lot of the I think rewards um are extrinsic, right? They're not intrinsically motivated behaviors and the rewards aren't extrinsic. It's you know, the numbers on the scale, or it's clothing size, or it is what objectively can be seen as the result of your habit. It isn't how do I feel? Right. You know, how do I feel in my body, living in my body? Yes. And when I'm working with people, I'm really, you know, acknowledging that, yeah, diet culture has programmed us to, you know, build those healthy habits and reap the rewards, but it's not really talking about how you feel in your body.

Signe Darpino:

Exactly. Such a nice reframe. I love that, Jen.

Jenn Salib Huber:

So can we talk a little bit about emotional regulation and habits?

Signe Darpino:

Ooh, yeah. Um I have an idea. So is it okay if I start first with what habit reversal would look like? And I'll bring in emotion regulation. Okay. Um, okay, so I'll I'll use an example and I have permission. I'm changing the name. Um, let's say uh we're gonna use Rachel as the client's name. So Rachel comes to me in midlife, I think she was in her mid-50s, and she has uh binge eating disorder. And I just want to just reiterate to the listeners that typically when we're thinking about binge eating disorder, uh, well, as far as the diagnostic criteria goes, with binge eating disorder, it's really not supposed to be engaging in any compensatory behaviors. But but the most common is somebody calling me saying that they have binge eating disorder, uh, they get into session with me, and and I find out that uh what they're actually doing is restricting their food, which is leading to the binge physiologically. And of course, there can be a little habit there, right? So, but in this case, with this particular client, she is one of very few clients that actually meet the criteria for binge eating disorder, which is an indicator that really the criteria needs to change. So there is no restriction going on because I wouldn't start doing habit reversal work around a binge until the food was calibrated first by a dietitian such as yourself. Okay, so I just want to make sure that we all understand there is plenty of eating, there's no restriction in this particular case. So she comes in with bona fide binge eating disorder and she tells me the story. She says, you know, I went to my primary care physician, and in this in this case, Rachel is living in a larger body. I also want to make sure that the listeners know that not everybody who has binge eating disorder is living in a larger body. Um so she she goes into her doctor, she discloses it's very vulnerable for her, you know, but she she knows that she needs more support. So he's her first line. She says to him, I am experiencing binge eating disorder and I I would, you know, like help. And so the first thing he recommends to her is GLP1 for intentional weight loss. And she says to him, and this is very rare, right? She says to him, Hey, instead of weight loss medication or medication for intentional weight loss, how about you refer me to a therapist? Um very unusual for a client to be holding that information, right? So he refers her to me. Um, at the time I was living in a kind of a small town, and so, you know, the the eating disorder care was pretty sparse. And so he he did happen to know about me. She he refers to me, and um, we start doing habit reversal work around her eating disorder. And of course, it's not the only work we're doing. We're just infusing in the habit model here because there's lots of other good work that we're doing. Okay, so what we did first was um we we started by developing more awareness around her routines. And this is really cool work because you really need the client. I mean, think about it. We all have our little routines that we do in the morning or in the day that's different on the weekday. You know, we know I know my routine, you know your routine. So you really have to work very closely with the client on their particular routine. And so during the week, when she had a lot of activity scheduling and she worked, she worked four days during the week. Um, she didn't, her binge eating behaviors were not there. But what would happen is those urges would start to rise as Friday came around because she had Friday through Sunday off, right? So the urges start to rise and she would have a routine. So she would wake up, let's say a Saturday morning, she'd wake up, have her coffee coffee, stay in her PJs, and do some the binge eating would start, you know, uh during the day, like on a Saturday, for example. We started by developing more awareness around Rachel's routine. And what we thought about was the chain is easiest to break early. And so we were thinking, working together on figuring out when would be the easiest time to do something different. Okay. So, and of course, thinking, thinking early, right? So what she came up with, because again, I can't come up with this, I don't know her retain or her habits, right? So what she came up with, and and it's a very personalized approach, is that she wakes up, she has her coffee, and after her cup of coffee, instead of staying in her PJs, she found that if she jumped in the shower, took a shower, got dressed for the day, the binge would not happen. Does that for her? And so for her, she just got a little bit of reward from taking the shower. And and I don't know exactly what that was. It was like, um, I can't remember what it was, but I'm assuming it gave her a bit of a sense of self-mastery to just get up, take the shower, get dressed for the day. So that's an example of a time in the sequence of her routine that is the easiest to do something different. Now, of course, it's not as easy as that. So we did a couple of other things, and one other example would be she had this pattern of in the evening, which is a very common time for for binge eating, in the evening, so she would, you know, go to the grocery store and would shop for the binge, come home, and the binge would start while watching television. And so another habit reversal technique, yeah, right. So another common habit reversal technique that we did was um, well, we changed the the the grocery shopping. That that that's another part of it that we might not go into. But what what we came up with was a commitment to eat only, we couldn't have switched our habit around. And so the eating was only going to happen at the table. And then what we did was because there was such a strong conditioned response to binging in front of the TV, right? A conditioned response to a certain time of the evening and a conditioned response to to watching television while while binging. So eating at the table initially, and then what we did, and this is keeping in alignment with Columbia's team eating disorder program that the way that they do it, um, we found a way to replace her old behavior with a new behavior that is somewhat rewarding, which is tricky because it's hard to find something that competes with food. And so this is gonna sound kind of crazy, but I I think it was actually a good one. So she um she picked up finger knitting, which was kind of I know, I know that wouldn't work for me because I'd be so frustrated. Um, but it was really fun, and so it's a motor skill, and so she did finger knitting while watching TV instead of eating initially, initially while the urges were really high, and so she'd have an urge to eat in front of the TV, she'd act opposite of the urge, do the finger knitting instead, and eventually over time, that urge started to get more regulated and go into more of a dormant state. And then eventually she got to a place where she didn't need any habit at all. She was just able to watch TV while she's watching TV. She just watched TV and she would, you know, tend to eat at the table. Replacing the old habit with a new habit that was somewhat rewarding. In this case, it was finger knitting, but it's very individualized. Yeah. So that's an example of habit reversal work.

Jenn Salib Huber:

And I love that. And I really love that you specified like this was somebody who was eating enough. So this wasn't a reaction to undernourishment. Right. Which, you know, is the very common scenario that a lot of people who, you know, will say to us, like, oh, I just can't stop eating at night. And then we ask them what they're eating during the day. And it becomes clear that they're just not nourishing enough. And so their body is making sure that they're eating. So I I love that piece of it. And, you know, the the work that she was doing, you know, to find the replacement and things is really in line with the intuitive eating practice, not reacting exercise, which is to notice, to notice, you have to be able to notice it. You have to be able to kind of press pause, but intentionally choose something else pleasurable. Right. So you're, you know, you're acknowledging that this is an emotional hunger event, habit, whatever. You know, reactive eating is a habit. And you're putting some intention to changing it. And, you know, a lot of people make the mistake of thinking that intuitive means automatic. And it doesn't. It doesn't. It does sometimes require that input of energy in order to become that too. Right? I love that. I love that story. I think that's such a great example of reactive habit eating, whether that's binge eating or not, and how we can use brain science to you know, to change it. That's amazing. I love that.

Signe Darpino:

Okay. And what I love about brain fog and it being a bit transient is that I remembered what I was going to say. Excellent. Okay. Okay. So you all so you started off by asking me about emotion regulation. Yes. And I just do want to bring that piece in because, of course, with this case of this particular client, it was multifactorial. There were many parts. I was just kind of focusing on one part. But one thing I do want to bring in is that as we were forming this new habit, um, what we would also do is on Thursday, when those urges would start to rise in regards to the weekend coming and the binge eating and the urges rising about going to the grocery store and buying food for the binge. What we would do, we would use a very simple technique. And um, it's one that, you know, she could use at work in the middle of the day, doing other things. And so as she started to see that urge starting to rise, and we use like a um in dialectical behavioral therapy, also called DBT, we we use an urge scale, one to five. So let's let's pretend that that urge is, I don't know, like at a three. As the urge would start to rise, we would use a super simple emotion regulation technique, which is, you know, what thought do I notice? So getting into what we call in DBT, and it's I think DBT bar borrowed it from other places. Um, just notice a thought of wanting to go to the grocery store and buy food for a bench. I just noticed versus like it's so it's kind of like the difference between being in the movie of ourselves versus like watching the movie. I just noticed a thought about wanting to go to the grocery store and buy food for a bench. Um, what do I feel? Feel anxious. Where do I feel it? I feel it like in my gut. And so it doesn't sound like a lot, but it is emotion regulation. It's something really handy that people can do in the middle of the day. And the the purpose of it is that the brain, as you know, tends to start to fuse because you know, we're talking about behavior, uh habitual behaviors, but there's also habit of thought. So habit, so again, whatever we repeat indoors. And so with with thoughts, especially ones that we've practiced, there is this fusion that occurs, this regeneration. Um, when I'm talking to teens, I talk about it like hamster wheeling. And so if the thought happens over and over again, I want to go go to the grocery store after work, I want to go to the grocery store and it starts to rise, and the the individual is fusing or ruminating with a particular thought. What's nice about this particular technique is that it really addresses the rumination, which is the real culprit. Okay. So by noticing the thought, what do I feel? Where do I feel it? It kind of takes you out of that rumination cycle. So anyway, that's just one emotion regulation technique that I like. It's a simple one.

Jenn Salib Huber:

Yeah. And I think, you know, again, listeners and people in my community will know we talk a lot about emotional regulation because we we are at our best when we're emotionally regulated. And so if something takes us out of that, whatever it is, we if we can find a way to center in those moments, it becomes so much easier to follow through with whatever it is that we want to do, right? Right.

Signe Darpino:

Right. And if we're using food as a way to cope and we're taking that food away, um there is a need to strengthen the skill set of distress tolerance. So hanging out with our uncomfortable emotions without without bringing in a behavior that makes the situation worse.

Jenn Salib Huber:

Yeah.

Signe Darpino:

So it's okay.

Jenn Salib Huber:

So let's try and pivot a little bit to movement. Okay. Because you know, movement is one of those behaviors that we can somewhat control. You know, when we're talking about um a weight neutral, health and every size approach, we talk a lot about, well, what are the things that you can control? Behaviors. That's pretty much the list. That's all you can control. Yeah. Yeah. So, and movement is, you know, what I see in in my community is, you know, some people have um a movement practice that is well established and it and it has weathered all the storms of life, and that's great. There are lots of people, I was one of them, where 20 years ago, 30 years ago, the only reason I moved my body was to manage the calorie in, calorie out equation. So I hated movement, but I did it because I thought I had to. So then when I stopped, I had a five, six-year period where I wanted to do nothing. I didn't even want to go walk around the block. I was so resentful towards movement. And it wasn't until I healed my relationship with food and through the process of intuitive eating and discovering joyful movement and giving myself permission to move my body in ways that I enjoy, not because I have to, that it really started to cement this new relationship now that I've had for, you know, more than a decade. But a lot of the people that kind of come to me and come to the community really want to have a behavior of movement, but they just can't get that hamster wheel going. You know, it's like it's a start, stop, start, stop, um, you know, and they just can't get it to fix itself because they're still in that old pattern. So let's talk a little bit about like building habits around movement.

Signe Darpino:

Okay. I love that. And so, yes, switching from habit reversal to habit formation. And and there's one thing I want to start with that I've really been thinking about lately also. Um uh we I used to say that we we shouldn't be having conversations about mental health without food and sleep having a seat at the table. And and my colleague, Dr. Riley Nichols, he's a sport psychologist, he treats eating disorders in sport. He recently said to me, um, but also movement. So he's so I so now I rephrase it and I say we shouldn't be having conversations about mental health without food, sleep, and movement, having a seat at the table, just because of how much those things are foundational and really help give us that core foundation for emotion regulation. And of course, when you and I um are talking about movement um and how beneficial it is, we're talking about movement that is nutritionally supported. Because if movement's not nutritionally supported, then we can forget about all those benefits to our mental health. So anyway, I just want to put that little phrase in there, and that's really coming from Riley's work. Okay, so so I'm gonna, if it's okay, I'm gonna give a personal example of me in mood life midlife and um getting back to forming the habit of strength training. Okay, so uh I have um, you know, I've been studying midlife and menopause now for a few years, and in my studies have just really found that like, okay, adding incorporating in a little bit of strength training in midlife and beyond could be very beneficial, could um be a health behavior that could sort of like honor my future self and you know increase the likelihood of my mobility um and autonomy. And so um I and you know, uh I hear that, you know, we're supposed to, you know more about this than I do, Jen. We're sure we're probably supposed to be doing it like two or three times a week. I I do it one time and it's all I kind of want to do. I just want to put that out there. Maybe we're I don't know. Um I I only like to do it one time and that works perfectly for me. So I just I just want to kind of like um reiterate the flexibility with that particular health behavior if if somebody is interested. So here's what I did. So I had this negative frame of reference for strength training. Um, I would get injured. It's it's actually not something I enjoyed and during COVID, tried to do it virtually, and there just was no reward there for me that I could find. But as I was reading my studies, I'm like, you know what? I'm gonna revisit it, give it another try. So here's what I did. Um, and hopefully this will speak to people. So the key to getting started is to first pick a time that you could repeat regularly. Okay. So my particular strength training class is on a Sunday. And if that Sunday class was at 6 30 a.m., it's not a time that I could sustain, it would be too uncomfortable for me. Okay. So the key is making it comfortable, thinking about time first. So this Sunday class is at 10 30 a.m., which is so perfect. And so um the thing that you want to be thinking about is what for me, okay. If I happen to wake up at 7:30-ish and have a little chill time in the morning on my Sunday, have some coffee, maybe, you know, uh do a little journaling, what whatever the chill time looks like. Waking up at 7:30, having the chill time and going to class is the routine for me. So if, and this is gonna sound silly, but if I happen to wake up, I don't typically wake up very late, but let's pretend that I woke up at 8 30 and I didn't, or at nine o'clock and didn't have that chill time, class wasn't gonna happen. So, anyway, I just want to point out the importance of picking out a time that works for you if it's possible. Um yeah, and the one thing backing up too that I forgot about is the importance of especially initially of an environmental cue. And so for me, that's my purple yoga mat that I bring to my strength training class. And so the idea is to put the purple yoga mat by my bed. So I go to sleep looking at the purple yoga mat, I wake up, I see the purple yoga mat. Um, I wake up at 7:30, I have my coffee, I chill a little bit, I go to class. And then the other thing is that if you compare the workout, whichever kind of joyful movement it is for you, and it's not always necessarily joyful in the beginning, but if you compare it with something rewarding, that's like a double whammy. So for me, this is gonna sound funny, Jen. Um, and if somebody from my class hears this, I'm gonna be so embarrassed. So for me, I like to get to class early and I kind of like to chat people up in line, you know, and and it's kind of sad because they're not always consistent. I don't think they always like to chat it up. It's a little too early for them, maybe. They might have woken up and I'm like, you know, so they're not they're not consistent always. But um anyway, I enjoy talking to new people, getting there early, um, going into class, and you know, the music that the that the instructor plays. And and for me, this is a class that focuses on mobility, flexibility, um, a lot of balance work. And another thing that I like about it is that the instructor, Crystal, she doesn't, there's no diet talking class. She reminds, right? Uh she reminds the class to fuel before working out and make sure we go eat afterwards. There's just like the the total absence of any diet culture at all. So the other piece about habit formation and movement is first of all, figuring out your routine, um, the time that works the best for you, that would be the easiest to sustain, pairing it with something rewarding. And then afterwards, if you can give airtime um to the things that you liked about the workout. So for me, it's like, you know, after class, I just feel strong. And of course, there are studies that you and I know about that um when we're working out for internal motivators, like feeling strong or the way that it feels afterwards, it's much more likely to sustain the exercise than if we were to focus on external motivators, as in like changing the shape of our body, um, not as sustainable. And so the the key also is giving air time in the beginning stages to the things that you like about movement, that particular movement.

Jenn Salib Huber:

I love that. Thank you so much for sharing that, especially the lowering the bar, which is like one of my community's motto, right? Like we lower the bar all the time. And there, you know, there are recommendations around exercise that everybody knows, but you know, what works for you is what works for you. Yeah. And being able to honor that and using habit science to pick a time that's convenient, right? To make it easy and obvious, to celebrate how you feel after the movement. You know, I've talked about my routines, which are very similar. So I gave up trying to go to a gym about 10 years ago. I realized that it was not the environment for me. So over the last 10 years, I've built all kinds of home equipment. And so for me to Tuesdays and Thursdays are my days. And what I do is that I set out my clothes the night before in the bathroom on the on the dryer rack so that it's the first thing I put on. Because I put the clothes on, I'm like 95% sure I'm gonna do it. I love that. That's your environmental cue. Yeah. Then it's an extra effort required. So I set the clothes out the night before and I put them on. And I, because I have everything in my living room, it's easy and obvious, right? But I don't always even know what I'm gonna do until that day. I give myself that like for me, that's also part of the reward. It's like, oh, I get to like choose. And I and I teach people, and I think this is helpful for people who are struggling with getting started, to match your mood to your movement and not about how you're feeling now, but how you want to feel at the end of the movement. So you mentioned about you know feeling strong. I'm the same way. If I need to, if I need a boost of confidence, I pick up my kettlebell because it is impossible for me to not feel like a badass at the end of that workout. Yeah. So if, but if I'm feeling really anxious and I want to unwind, then maybe I'm gonna go for a walk or I'm gonna do some yoga. If I've got nervous energy and I want to feel calm, I'm gonna sweat it out, maybe to the oldies. Totally. So, you know, really pairing it with uh everything that you talked about around environmental cues and things like that, but really building that intrinsic motivation around how do I want to feel in my body? Yes, I love that. And I'm not saying that works for everyone, but for me, that keeps me showing up.

Signe Darpino:

And I love the angle of intuitive movement. And I think about it, uh, the thing, and I also like that we're bringing in flexibility so we can read about how often we should be doing strength training in midlife and beyond. I I have a pretty good idea of that. It's more than one day a week, but I don't, it's just not something I want to do. Uh I love it one day a week. I have nice habit formation there. It keeps it fun. For me, if I add it another day, it it just it just doesn't flow. Um, and it doesn't keep it as fun, and I'm not gonna want to continue doing it. So, um, but I think about I do play tennis and I I have um I've played tennis for a long time and taken huge breaks in between. Um, but when I think about tennis as another example, um, you know, we're about to come into a rainy season. So it's like, you know, if it's dark and cloudy outside, I'm not always gonna feel I'm not in the mood necessarily to do tennis, nor is it necessarily going to be an option. But my mood, you know, nor is it like possible, or I might uh strain an ankle. Um, but I might choose a different kind of movement instead, you know, maybe like yoga, but I I like bringing in that mood piece. And I also like the idea of reserving the right to sometimes not go or not go to class. And and remembering, just to kind of say it out loud, right? Remembering that I trust myself. Like I have habit formation, and I'm more likely to continue to do it if I allow myself to be able to take breaks and know that I'm gonna come back.

Jenn Salib Huber:

That kind of answers the next question I was gonna ask you, but I'm gonna ask it anyway. So for someone who feels like it's too late to build habits and memory, and people do say that to me, they're just like, oh, Jen, I I just can't. It's just too hard. What encouragement, like what strategies do you really want them to take home from this conversation?

Signe Darpino:

Okay. Um, so let me see. They it's later in life, they're they've been a little exercise avoidant. Um, and they'd like to get in the habit of moving. Um I think, and tell me what you think about this, but I think at first it it requires um how do I want to say this? Some exploring. So I know for me it's like I took golf lessons for starters, and I'm like, I I don't think that I did it long enough to know if I liked it. Okay, to be fair, because I don't think I had enough mastery to to like it, to walk to to get enough reward. Um and then I, you know, I don't know, I try different things. So it might in the beginning try it, it might mean trying different things. And I like to think in terms of micro goals. Um, and so if you want to do movement, but you find yourself not taking any action, the goal might be too big. So I like to kind of calibrate the goals and break them down into smaller parts, which are much more doable, and we're much more likely to head toward them if they're small. So it might look like um, one what is one thing I can do this week? So one thing might be I'm gonna call this tennis club and find out how much it costs for membership. That might be like one step you take. And what I like about taking micro goals around this is that when the goals are really small and you're more likely to head toward them, it it gives you a more immediate sense of self-mastery, like, oh cool, you know, I said that I would do one thing, I called the club, I got the price, and it kind of motivates you. It has a bi-directional effect, it mo motivates you for the next goal. So I would think in terms of micro goals, think in terms of like what are the areas of movement that you might have interest in, and it might take a little while, you know, it might take some time. And um it it's there is no expiration date, you know, and and and movement, it's I mean, it takes a little while, but movement, I I did uh Dr. Kelly McGonag McGonagall, McGon McGonagall is a health psychologist at Stanford, and she wrote The Joy of Movement, and she talks about how it takes, you know, a little bit, and it takes about 20 plus movements, sorry, 20 plus minutes of movement that where there is a little bit of exertion, and over time it really starts to activate the reward circuitry in the brain. And and she said, she says something interesting because people say, like, oh, you know, working out it's like a drug, or oh, I get a runner's high. And she's like, when you're in the habit of moving, once you get through that kind of initial stage that that can be a little bit challenging, kind of like a field of resistance and do it anyway kind of stage, right? Or the the stage where you're putting all that effort in until it becomes effortless. She says the the drug that it's the most like on the brain, once you're at that stage, is a very effective antidepressant.

Jenn Salib Huber:

Mm-hmm. Yeah. So I think that anybody who has a joyful regular movement practice has experienced the joy of movement, right? Yes, absolutely. So, you know, kind of understanding how that all works, I think is so, so important. I have loved this conversation. And even though it's coming out, you know, as we are starting to think about the new year turning over, and maybe people are starting to think about habits, I hope that this conversation has been grounding. And as people start to think of, you know, new year, new you, that maybe instead of new year, new you, you're really just thinking about, you know, how can I add to the, you know, the awesomeness that I already am and use this habit science. So before you leave us, I have two other questions for you. The first is the one that I ask everyone, which is what do you think is the missing ingredient in midlife?

Signe Darpino:

Ooh, the missing ingredient in midlife. Hmm. Well, I think the the miss the missing ingredient that doesn't get as much attention as it should in midlife is that it is such a a nice time of life because of all the accumulated wisdom and self-awareness. And what I love about non-diet living is that it really just allows you to be in your life and enjoy and enjoy that accumulated wisdom and self-awareness. And I mean, there's there's just nothing like it. So I really appreciate the work you do to encourage non-diet living, Jen.

Jenn Salib Huber:

Well, thank you. And I appreciate the work you do, and you have something very exciting coming out um in the next week or two. So can you tell us about that?

Signe Darpino:

Sure, yeah. So it's it's a book titled A Woman's Guide to Menopause, Body Image, and Emotional Wellbeing at Midlife. And it comes, yes, it comes out soon. And I'm also excited that you for people to see that you contributed to the food chapter on gentle nutrition. So I'm really just excited for people to learn about gentle nutrition because I don't know. I mean, I'm assuming your listeners know quite a bit about it, obviously, but the general public does not know what gentle nutrition is. And I love that piece, and I thank you for doing that because before I wrote my book, um, I was reading books on menopause, and uh they would be really informative and super helpful until I would get to the food section. And um, I could just tell that people are writing outside of their scope of practice as it relates to food and suggesting that we take certain things away. And of course, all that made me want to do is eat more of the thing they were trying to take away. So I really appreciate your excerpt. And hey, we're just gonna add in some things, but we're not gonna take anything away.

Jenn Salib Huber:

Well, it was an honor to contribute to it. Um, it's an absolutely wonderful resource. Where can people find it and order it? And you know, either on pre-sale now or when it comes out.

Signe Darpino:

So it's on pre-sale now. I believe Amazon does the earliest pre-sales for most everything. And so I think that that is the case. And then it is a book through Rutledge uh in London, and so it will be on their site as well.

Jenn Salib Huber:

Amazing. Thank you so much for joining me, Signa. We will have all the contact links in the show notes. Um, but this has been an amazing conversation, and I thank you so much for sharing your time and your wisdom. Jen, thank you for having me. Thanks for joining me for this episode of the Midlife Feast. If you're ready to take the next step towards thriving in midlife, head to menopausenutritionist.ca to learn more about my one-to-one and group coaching programs, free resources, and where to get your copy of Eat to Thrive during menopause. And if you've loved today's conversation and found it helpful, please share it with a friend who needs to hear this and leave a review wherever you listen to podcasts. It helps so many more people just like you find their way to food freedom and midlife confidence. Until next time, remember midlife is not the end of the story, it's the feast. Let's savor it together.

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Dr. Jenn Salib Huber RD ND

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